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Hi there, I'm Ben Pearce and welcome to the Tech World Human Skills Podcast. Every episode we talk through how to thrive in the tech world, not just survive. Now, if you want me to work with your team, just give me a shout. I love to help teams be more influential, memorable and successful with their stakeholders. Head over to www.techworldhumanskills.com to book a chat.
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Human Skills Podcast that we continue to talk about all the things on how to thrive in the tech world and today we're talking about how to succeed in job interviews particularly for people applying for for pre-sales roles. Now when it comes to going through hiring processes there are some things that have changed a lot recently but things that have stayed the same so our guest today knows loads about this he's been a pre-sales hiring manager for years and has interviewed gazillions of people he's the EMEA director of sales engineering at Hi Bob please welcome to the show Dave Ledger. Dave it is brilliant to have you with us. Yeah thank you Ben really excited to be here and yeah I'd love to uh love to talk about this topic so happy to get into it. Now um I've had the pleasure of meeting you a good few times over over the years but for people that haven't met you before um can you introduce yourself? Yeah absolutely so I joined Hi Bob which is a HR tech company about three months ago to be the director for EMEA for sales engineering. Prior to Hi Bob I had a stint last year at Vimeo which was a video technology company and also before that I was doing a very similar role at Seismic which is a sales or sales and overman tech company as well.
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So I've kind of bounced around different areas of tech but it's always been in pre-sales and it's mostly been specifically pre-sales leadership roles and so so I'm a big advocate for the profession I love being a sales engineer and I love being a sergeant and leader uh so I obviously a big part of that is hiring so this is a topic that I love to talk about and I'm hopefully reasonably experienced in at this point. Yeah well so I'm really excited to talk talk about this topic too because because as I sort of said as I was tearing it up you know there's there's things that have changed there are things that have stayed the same there are things that people always do really badly you know that people can approve upon but loads of people have talked about hiring right? Yeah. Why do we need to talk about it again do you think? Yeah I think the reason is really because that in the last few years I think expectations on both sides have changed a lot. The expectations on the hiring managers what they're looking for with the rise of you know AI disruption and also for candidates right what they should expect and how they should expect to go through these processes and what they're looking for has kind of changed quite a lot in my opinion. I mean since I joined Hi Bob I said I was only here three months but we've been on a pretty significant hiring spree right since I joined so I've done over 50 interviews in those three months and I would say that I'm still being kept on my toes quite a lot by just how widely the performance of interviews varies and how people perform in interviews as well as just you know being asked things and hearing things that you wouldn't necessarily expect so I think it's a it's a good moment to talk about it simply because with the disruption coming from AI a lot of expectations have changed on both sides.
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Yeah no it's really fascinating and I speak to a lot of people both hiring managers and people going for jobs and to hear how things have changed but also hear how things have stayed the same because people are still people right and it's this idea that some people are assessing some other people to see if they're going to work well together you know that's basically what it's all about. Yeah I mean it's still just such a human-centered activity hiring at the end of the day and at the end of the day what is a company it's just a collection of humans right so at some point you have to really assess like the human side and there's only so much that AI can help with right it certainly can help and we'll get into some ways I think that does help but you know at the end of the day it is at its core like a very human-centered exercise hiring ultimately. Shall we start with some classics shall we start with some classic bits so there are some sorts of questions some things that haven't changed so maybe could you could you sort of set us up with some of the classic questions and then if you've got any stories of disasters or stories of people that have done it really well because people are still taking some of these classic questions and making a right pick there of it. I would say so so yes I mean expectations have fundamentally changed but the good news is there are still some fundamentals that don't change right and I don't think they ever will they probably haven't changed for hundreds of years in job interviews right so there are still some fundamental things that you want to you want to nail and you want to get right so I've got three good I've got three examples for you right or three maybe three questions that you should expect to answer at some point during your interview process right and the first one is pretty straightforward but it's why do you want to work here I mean you would be surprised how varied and infrequently well answered this question is okay so I think people need to explain the motivation for joining your company right this is quite a basic thing but often it's quite poorly prepared it's not crisp it's not articulate I mean what does you know what are some horror stories here like I think when I ask that question if somebody goes off into like a long kind of life story where they start telling me about all their experience and how the last 20 years have like led up to this point that's fine but it's not great like I really want something articulate crisp like 30 seconds why do you want to work here right like if my ceo just walk into this interview you've got 30 seconds tell them why you want to work here right so it really should be crisp and articulate and another classic mistake I think when they answer this question is they don't make it positive so they tell me what they're running away from not why they want to join us right I think that's a big mistake that can definitely be part of your motivation for wanting a change and it will come up in the conversation but it shouldn't be your answer to why you want to join the company it should be a positive reason not like oh I need to leave my job because I hate my manager so this looked good I you know I don't want to hear that I want to hear something more positive and researched for that answer for sure and so tell me what is the impact of you as a hiring manager when somebody comes up with just a negative diatribe of all the things that their last company have done wrong or you know all that what does what does that make you think about them from a hiring perspective I just think it means for me that it you know rightly or wrongly I then get the impression that the person is is not motivated by positive experience potentially and they're kind of always going to be looking for the negative side of things I don't yes people do leave jobs for negative reasons right they they don't fit with the culture of the company they have a terrible they the the product gets heavily disrupted by a competitor and it's no longer viable there's lots of negative reasons right why people leave and often there is a push as well as a pull but for sure I when somebody leads with that I think it does tell me something a little bit about their character and so yeah as we said hiring is a human endeavor so I'm trying to look for people with a positive mindset a positive character so that's definitely definitely one I would try to avoid if possible yeah and it's finding the aspects because you know you could be in a situation where we've just been bought by horrible company x everybody's fleeing like rats and I'm thinking of particular companies that I can think of you know everybody's fleeing like rats I'm desperate to get a job I've got a mortgage to pay I'm just applying for everything you know and that might be the situation that the reality the reality of where you are but that's not the facet that you choose to to share with your hiring manager you know you have applied to this role for a reason yeah so what is that reason and just index and spend time talking about the reasons that you think that this role would be a great one for you absolutely absolutely I mean it's a classic industry wise right like why change why now why us right or why high bob let's say if you're interviewing a high bob right so the why high bob should be kind of removed from the why change the why change is like yeah our company got acquired the they've done a big restructure I'm not interested in working for a big corporate anymore you know whatever it is that's for me some something you should weave in separately you want to come in with a really positive yes why high bob like why is this company great for me why is this role great for me and be really positive about it that's the first that's what you know it doesn't change but I'm amazed sometimes that people
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haven't prepared a good answer to that question let's put it yeah let's move on to the next one what's the the second classic question I mean a second classic question that I always ask and I ask it because I often get very different answers which is good which is why do you like being a sales engineer or if it's the first first time role like why do you want to be a sales engineer and I ask this really because what I'm looking to do is understand somebody's motivation so what I mean by that is what is it about the role that you really like or really perceive that you will like basically based on your research if you're trying to break into the field right and I think it's really important for a hiring manager to know this because ultimately understanding how somebody's motivated helps you to get the best out of it right so some people are motivated by internal recognition some people are motivated by external recognition some people are motivated by financial reward some people are motivated simply by the internal satisfaction of having done a great job and it really varies across the sales engineering community I find there's lots of different motivations for being a sales engineer so I never get the same answer twice which is a great thing but to be honest the biggest thing that I think people get wrong here is they try to answer what they think I want to hear but I would just say the best way to answer this is just to be completely authentic be completely honest and just tell me straight what you like being a sales engineer and if that's a description of what I'm looking for great we continue the conversation if it's not then that's also fine because at the end of the day I don't want to hire somebody who's not motivated or in a way that we can we can satisfy right I think that's really important and and you would be as a candidate doing yourself a disservice if you joined a company that couldn't motivate you right because of yeah motivated so I think it's really important to just have that perspective when you're being asked like you know why do you like being a sales engineer sounds like such a basic question but the answer is quite deep in some respects so definitely one to think about and yeah if you're interviewing for a sales engineering position you will absolutely be asked this 100% and I don't you know whilst the motivations for individuals could be different maybe make some of the key things that you're going to need to be doing like understanding customers business building relationships understanding a product being able to connect those two things together following up on things they're like every sales engineer kind of type type role really so again if you can index around those sorts of things I love building relationships I love learning new things I love they're just like no almost like no-brainer stock answers for every sales engineering and then putting your own little spin on it yeah absolutely and I think also like the beauty of sales engineering I think is that it is quite a varied career and the sales engineers at different companies have the same core of the role but they actually operate a bit differently right there's definitely a spectrum of more technical roles versus more commercial roles and so what motivates you will place you kind of on that spectrum and you want to find a company that can satisfy that right like if you are very technical you might not want to join a company that's selling a business-owned application to a line of business you might want to join something where it's very much like a cto driven developer driven sale and if you're more commercially minded the opposite right and it's not just it's not just about what skills people have it's also about what what motivates them and what they are doing at work you know that's that's really what it's about so yeah that would be the second classic I would say make sure you've got a good answer for that one. What's the third one? The third one is pretty typical not just for sales engineering I'd say it's for like all sales interviews basically is tell me a deal tell me about a deal that you're proud of right tell me about a deal that you did that you were part of that you're proud of and and I think this is a good one to ask and a very good one that you should have prepared a thought about and first of all I always ask you in that way so I say a deal that you're proud of so why somebody is proud of the deal that they then talk about also tells me something right are they proud about the deal because it was the highest ARR that they ever did because it was very complex and a difficult sale because it had multiple stakeholders and they had to do lots of champion building and was it because it broke into a new market that we'd never done before whatever the reason the deal that they have chosen tells me something about what again what they're motivated by and what skill set they bring right so and how that then aligns to the role I'm looking for so I definitely think that's a big one but it's also a basic question about sales acumen right like a badly answered version of this question would just be a timeline of events like here's how here's what happened in the deal like what I'm asking really is what did you do what was your part in this and how did you own it drive the strategy how did you bring new ideas to the table did you build your own champions or did you let the account executive all the relationship you know what's your role in this I think that's a really a really strong answer would contain lots of examples of how they owned the deal yeah I love that question and I remember I used to use similar ones and I'd like to use them early in the interview and the reason for that is because when you ask something about something that they're proud of that they you know hopefully you're going to see the passionate side of them what you know this is something they're really proud of I'm going to get as opposed to starting with a negative tell me about some conflict tell me you know what some of those more negative questions that maybe we still need to explore but if you start off early with something that's about what were you proud of you know what are you passionate about you get that kind of regulation of you know have they got any passion are they proud of stuff and how do they talk about it and it's often a great springboard into many of the other sort of questions that you might get into you can take out of this kind of question exactly do they have a deal that they are proud of right do they take pride in their work I think there's a key element there right yeah yeah you always you know as an se like you always have deals that that meant more than others I think you know I mean yes every dollar of ARR is the same when finance count that counts it all up at the at the end of the year but some of the dollars are harder fought than others and it's just always going to be the case so the ones that really meant something to you that really like you worked hard for and crucially I think a great answer to this question is if you weren't there if it was another se that had done this deal it wouldn't have happened right I want to know like the unique thing that you did that without you there it's not even not going to happen right because that's what ultimately this is all about right like you that's how you add value it might appear and and if you've got loads of them if you're I think you know choosing out some of those more exciting ones like you know why did you choose this oh it was market market making this was the first time it had ever been done in Europe or we broke into this industry or it was really you know we fought hard against competitors and so it's so you know these are the sorts of ones that are quite exciting aren't they and you start to think brilliant we've got somebody that's a real innovator here or we've got somebody that's a real competitor here or something that had to manage really complex stakeholders here or you know those sorts of things I think it's about also as a candidate being very conscious of the role that you're interviewing for and what market segment or industry or geography your territory is going to be and because unless you're working for like a true startup you will have some kind of market segmentation that you're working under right so telling me about a deal which is in a completely different industry or market segment might be it's hard for me to relate like if you have lots of examples if you're in the luxurious position of having lots of examples tell me one that's relevant right yeah a good example would be that
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hi bob one of our strategic priorities is to go up market and to sell some more enterprise clients and so we're hiring some senior se who are going to go into that space and I think one of the things that really I really like is people who say yeah we we went and did this deal and there was lots of elements of it that people thought it couldn't be done and and it was we had to convince a lot of internal stakeholders that we should even do it and those kind of things which for me um shows the right mentality that we need because we're going to go up against new competitors in more complicated markets and we need people who are willing to kind of fight for it and make it happen right and not just go oh well in order to do that deal we're going to need to get the product team on side and I don't really want the hassle no no that's not you know so so picking the deal that matches the role that you're going for is also an important skill right so we've done those those three classic questions yeah let's start to think about uh you know what what has changed so you know recruiting hiring people in se roles now how's that different today and what are the things that have changed that people need to be thinking about yeah so i think a good question i'm using at the moment to try and gauge people's uh you know whether whether they are adapting to new reality of working in technology is i ask them how they think ai is changing the roles of the role of the sales engineer right or how has already changed the role and how will it change the role in their viewpoint right now that's not an easy question and there's no straightforward answer but i think when people answer that question i get a very good sense about firstly are they ai literate are they actually using it on a day-to-day basis because if they are they'll probably have lots of good examples of how they've been able to use ai to make their make themselves more efficient more effective as an se um but i also kind of want people who are looking a little bit further ahead as well so trying to understand what ai will do to the profession right and i think that's a harder answer but very interesting and it's an interesting conversation that i have with with candidates right i don't have a great answer to that myself i don't have a crystal ball nobody does but i think it's interesting getting people's perspective um so i think when it comes to talking about how you use ai which you will definitely be asked right i think a great answer is a mix of the kind of short-term tactical stuff like what are you doing today what have you actually used like in the past week that wouldn't have been available a year ago to make yourself more effective right and then there's also a sort of slightly more forward thinking okay well if agents become completely ubiquitous and we're able to build them in five minutes and do whatever we want what kind of things are going to go away as an se and what kind of things are going to become more valuable as an se i think that's a really interesting mix that people should definitely think about when they're talking about uh this you will be tested on how ai literate you are in any tech company now so that's that's a big change and i think something that you should be able to speak confidently about have you heard any really good examples that have read you know that you you've just stuck in your brain because somebody's taken a really good approach or or anything that's sort of stuck out like that yeah there's a few i mean there's the classic stuff that everybody's using now like you know well it takes less time to do account research deal research we can answer rfp's much faster those are sort of the sort of they're almost table stakes now i would say um one that i talked about recently which is very interesting is being able to automate the process of product feedback so the se team is often tasked in many companies with gathering prospect and customer feedback on and then presenting that back to product as you know roadmap ideas right like here are the biggest gaps that we see and things that we should change in the product in order to better be able to sell the product and better have happier customers right but that process is often think about how manually it actually is sometimes is like logging a product gap or aggregating that somehow trying to attach it to revenue data like trying to think about a sort of a scorecard of how you rank all of great ideas that everybody has and that often falls on the se team but what if you had a series of ai agents that could do this for you right most prospect meetings are recorded and transcribed so surely you could have an agent that finds the client's feedback in the call surely you could then have an agent that would match that against the database of existing product requirements and decide if there was duplication or not link it into your crm to attach some kind of a scoring like revenue scoring or potential revenue if it's a prospect right and then build a dashboard for the se leadership and the product leadership to discuss so you know removing that manual effort completely right i think some companies are getting there with this and some are really just dying but i think that's kind of a true use of ai right and it's not just about what was the what's the classic phrase henry ford used like if i asked people what they wanted they would have said they just want faster horses yeah what they really wanted was a car right a lot of what i'm hearing in the ai space is like we are making the processes that we did by hand as humans faster like account research rfp answering but we haven't really rethought the whole thing have we haven't really really thought the whole system nobody knows what that really looks like i don't think but people who are thinking that way talking that way in interviews like those are the people you're excited to talk about on hire for sure yeah yeah um what other sorts of things have changed that that people need to think about i mean definitely one is the improvement in the ai capabilities of ats systems so like ats you mean yeah so just to de-jargonify and ats is an application tracking system so essentially pretty much every company will have some version of this and what it is is essentially a way to manage job postings manage all of the applications manage the talent um the talent team are doing and manage the pipeline of candidates essentially right now one of the big uh things that have has come up in the last couple of years is that of course these ats systems have become increasingly sophisticated at using ai to analyze your cv and your linkedin profile when you apply for a job so i think a big thing that candidates can do to try and prepare themselves is to just do some research on what is going to happen to your cv when you put it in that form it's going to go and get read by an ai it's going to be scored it's going to be assessed against criteria and then the ats system is going to present the recruiter or the hiring manager with a hit list right like a list of people that they want to talk to and so i think just understanding that that's going to happen and then trying to write your cv to really highlight the right things in the right way so that it will be picked up correctly is definitely one that you can you can do um there are dedicated tools for that but you know you could do something as simple as just upload the cv that you've created into chat gpt tell it the position you're applying for and be like hey like roast my cv i guess i don't know just tell me all the stuff that's wrong with this and uh you know in chat gpt's usual blunt way it'll give you a few good answers probably just understanding that that's how it's worth it works you know i don't know if people are still another preconception that there's a human reading every cv there is not so you need to get away from that and really understand that it's being screened not just by like basic criteria but by like an ever increasingly sophisticated AI tool yeah um do you know what time is escaping us as we go on so i wonder maybe as we start to head into the back straight maybe sort any other best practices sort some quick fire best practices that you'd have for people um to help them when they're prepping for their their interview process yeah i think a good one is again it sounds quite basic but you know sales engineering roles or sales roles and you should run your your candidacy if you like uh just let you run a deal you know think about how good sales practice uh think about how you prep uh for the calls think about how you build champions how you do timely follow-ups and make sure that you're communicating well with all the different stakeholders throughout uh prepare your own discovery questions you'd be amazed how many times you do an interview and somebody says and i say like well what can i answer for you about the company about the role and they've got not you know they they come up with something but it's clear they haven't prepared anything um i'm just flabberg i mean wouldn't you have questions so i'm trying to hire people who are naturally good at discovery if you haven't got any discovery questions for me that's a problem right so i think that's definitely
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an overarching principle right run your candidacy like you run a deal cycle and try to apply the good practices that you see in your sales career into the candidacy that you have um i definitely think just a very basic i touched on it a bit earlier but like if you do nothing more than get a piece of paper and a pen and write down your three whys like why anything why change and why this company and if you have a good answer to those three questions you've done a decent amount of your interview yeah yeah now can i ask you another question because i think this is quite a controversial one uh but i'd be interested in your perspective because obviously tech pre-sales has a foot in tech and a foot in sales and this is the idea that that you try and close as the candidate you try and close the interviewer at the end of the process so i always remember i worked with a a pre-sales leader and she got a job and she said the reason she did the hiring manager said to her was because she was the only candidate that tried to close him on the which was to say can you see any reasons why we can't progress further in this you know what are the blockers and that was what got the job now i think about that from a hiring as i'm the hiring manager if somebody tries to close me i can respect that they're trying to but i'm giving nothing i'm like i'm okay and i'm a bit like oh i i feel a little cringe muscle when somebody tries to close me as a as somebody being closed so what are your thoughts i mean i would say
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i definitely do it when i'm interviewing i i i try and close people i would say it's a very soft close i would okay for like a really hard commitment i would say something uh along the lines of what you just said like you know based on our conversation do you have any reservations or based on our conversation is there anything i need to work a bit harder at in order for you to be a yes so it's kind of asking for feedback basically rather than trying to close necessarily um i think there's also stages of interview processes where it's better to do it than not um i'm thinking a one-to-one interview with a hiring manager or with a peer or another stakeholder if it's a one-to-one interview i think it's good practice to try and like close it down at the end if you're in like a panel style interview and there's like four people in the room and you've done like an hour and a half presentation it could be a bit awkward if you're trying to close like everyone you know so so don't just that's just good practice right read the room and read read also read the person that you're interviewing with often in sales engineering you will interview with sales leaders or other sales or sales people and like they expect it so definitely do it um if you're interviewing more with like a product manager they might be less inclined or less used to that type of conversation so just try and moderate based on who you're talking to as well um but i don't mind it i yeah it's controversial but i'm i'm up for it if you want to try and close me i'll happily give you the feedback you're after like that's okay that's i think i think what you said there the golden bit was read the room if you're with a sale a very commercial-minded sales then they expect it you said you know if you're with a deep techie maybe that's where you're more likely to make and pull a cringe muscle you know so it's it's kind of re reading that room read it reading that room a little bit or they might just be too brutally honest and tell you that you've got no chance i don't know but then it's probably a good thing in some ways right yeah that's not no i guess yeah yeah um just as we really start to wrap up yeah you've been doing all of this hiring right now you're saying you know you've got loads of vacancies you've been doing loads of hiring over the last three months have you got any like real hot off the press like what's the state of the se job hiring market at the moment yeah i think definitely right it's it changes rapidly um and there's definitely kind of boom periods and fallow periods in se hiring for sure so i think um i read i was reading the consensus state of pre-sales compensation report i think i've quoted that correctly uh you can go onto their website and find this i'm sure the consensus they do they do it every year they've been doing it for years haven't they yeah yeah and sometimes you have to take the results with a slight pinch of salt because you don't know exactly what the sample was and sometimes it's aggregated globally but generally speaking it's quite a good picture and it's really the only properly objective data that i know of on this anyway um that's actually sourced from the se community rather than some kind of like market research reports um and the crazy start i saw was that the median global se salary went up 16 from 2025 to 2026 which is a big jump and i definitely see some upward pressure on people's salary expectations um at least at least in the uk which is the main market i'm hiring for though i hire across europe obviously but mainly in the uk um i think there's a couple of things at play there undoubtedly the big ai companies like openai on froppik etc are paying really top dollar for talent and that's not just se that's across the board right and all go to market engineering everything um and that puts kind of an upward pressure on a median on on an average of course because there's some real big outliers at the top but i don't think that that can explain the whole trend i definitely think that there is ever more desire to and ever more understanding that the se role has real value right i mean a really hot take would be that you know people are out there predicting that ai is going to take sales engineering jobs but in in the last year when we've seen the mass adoption of ai into businesses into the into the corporate space se salaries have gone up double digits so that would indicate to me that we're more valuable than we've ever been and should be quite bullish about how we're going to be a great in the ai era no doubt about it for sure it's a fascinating stat and i i'd love to dig into it you know where my brain goes is there are so many big employers of se's with corporate payroll governance should we say where the merit increase can be a maximum of two three four percent even in a high inflationary and so it makes me think how many of those out you know is there so as soon as you say that i go 60 really i go quite high pitch really um but but maybe you know there's obviously like you say you don't know the exact sample size but that is a tremendous number 16 percent in a year it's great i think it's great times to be in se like i don't think that ai has diminished our skills or the requirement for our skills at all in fact i think it's improved it and i think that's fantastic for the profession you know absolutely um one final one i'll give you uh is that um it's a kind of a more macroeconomic perspective and it's really uk specific but i'm also in hr tech now so it's kind of my remit to understand and know these things but what people might not know about the uk job market is that as of january next year there'll be a new um employment rights act and what this essentially will do is that it's changing the amount of time that you need to be employed in order to be protected from unfair dismissal so traditionally this was two years so i think most people who've worked in the uk understand that if you work for a company after two for two years you gain a kind of extra level of protection from unfair dismissal they might not know exactly what that means but that was basically the scenario and this act is going to remove is going to change that it's going to take it from two years down to six months now that has quite a knock-on effect because i think what you will see specifically in the uk is shorter more intense probation periods so i think probation periods that used to be six months are probably going to get condensed down to three months um because i do think that people will be or like hr teams will be more wary of extending people be past six months if they're not really going to be a good fit long term because they do gain quite a lot of rights at six months so i think this will have an effect in a couple of ways like i said shorter probation periods um but i do hope that it also helps people like take a bit take a bit more of a chance and make faster decisions on hiring because they know that they have a shorter probation window to deal with um how exactly this works out is bit up for debate probably i'm not really sure but that is a change that in the uk specifically that i think people should be aware of it's quite an interesting change that i don't know i don't know why but it has not been very widely reported in the press yeah interesting thank you for sharing that um what do you know i'm looking at the clock time is time has escaped us so final final what what be your key takeaways for for people yeah my key takeaways are that there are still some fundamentals in getting hired as an se that have not changed right we spoke about those so there are still some basics that will be that have always been the case and will probably always be the case right so there's definitely something to hang on to that do your basics well your three whys your basic uh questions about why you want an se what good deals you've worked on before but i think the big thing that i would say is a takeaway is for people people need to understand firstly how to answer questions about their ai literacy and have good examples but also understand how ai has changed the hiring process itself and don't just walk in blind thinking that it's the same as it was five years ago it's not right so definitely make sure that you're well versed on the ai trends that have actually taken place in hiring software specifically like ats systems i think if you're savvy to that it will help you a lot yeah yeah no really interesting i mean the thing that that i i've loved as we talked about this firstly there's there's a lot more jobs coming on the market than there were a while ago and that's a really positive thing great about the median pay that's another great thing there are some classic things it is humans assessing other humans so get the classics right but also really think about that modern take on on on ai and your forward thinking piece cover modern take but at the end of the day this is still at least in my opinion a very human-centric endeavor right so having those basics and being able to connect with the person on the other side of the interview that has never and will never change now if people have loved what you've been talking about how can people get in touch with you yeah so absolutely but connect with me on social media on linkedin and you can find me i think i'm the only david ledger that works at hi bob so you should be able to find me pretty easily uh because last time i checked uh they sent me a connection i'm happy to connect with everybody in the presales community uh and also if you like what you heard you know keep an eye on our careers page uh we've got several sc team here is growing we've got lots of roles coming available uh you know as we head into our next fiscal year so yeah definitely keep an eye on there on that page and um yeah look to see your applications in there soon brilliant well do you know what it's been a fascinating conversation i've really enjoyed it uh so thank you so much for taking the time to come on share all your recent experience uh and and share all your insight with us thank you thank you for having me Ben it was a great conversation
[00:42:06:12 - 00:42:26:07]
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