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Hi there, I'm Ben Pearce and welcome to the Tech World Human Skills Podcast. Every episode we talk through how to thrive in the tech world, not just survive. Now, if you want me to work with your team, just give me a shout. I love to help teams be more influential, memorable and successful with their stakeholders. Head over to www.techworldhumanskills.com to book a chat.
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Skills Podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. Now today we're talking about how people in tech can accelerate their career and get paid more. That sounds interesting. Now our guest today has got some great thoughts on the subject. He is the VP of Platform Engineering at Hawke. He is also the host of the Build Your Edge podcast and author of the book Earn More Move Up. So please welcome to the podcast Jerry Burns. Jeremy it is lovely to have you with us. It's fabulous to be here Ben. Thank you for having me. Well the pleasure is all mine. Now so I've had the pleasure of meeting you a few times before but for our listeners that haven't met you before could you tell us a little bit about your background. Yeah so I've had a pretty long career. I'm old. I'm near the end of my career. I began in marketing funnily enough but then taught myself to code and then therefore have been a developer then into management and then lately into sort of senior leadership in technology. And so now you're leading a team and that tends to be a team that's creating product or what sort of team you're leading at the moment. Yeah so mostly I've been doing platform engineering work so the sort of the underlying platform and that's what I'm doing right now. So it's all of the Amazon stuff Kubernetes, Kafka all those good things which will then run the products that our customers use. Brilliant. So we're gonna be thinking today about how people sort of accelerate their career, get the most out of the career and more. And as I sort of said in my little intro to you, you authored a book called "Ernmore Move Up". Now I wonder, could you sort of tell our listeners what's the sort of the problem that you've observed? Why did you write that book? Why is this topic so interesting to you and what's the the problem that you see out there at the moment? Yeah so I think I've been pretty blessed really with my career you know like considering I was never trained in what I'm doing and I've been fairly driven and I've been relatively successful, been through some ups and some downs. But lately as you get into senior management you understand what happens behind the curtain, you know you understand what happens in the leadership meetings that most people don't see and those meetings can shape somebody's career, you know will they get promoted? Will they be made redundant? Will they get a pay rise? All those things and what I realized was that that's quite privileged information and it would be very useful for a lot of, should we call them employees, like direct reports, to understand that so that they can, I don't want to say play the game but let's use that expression, so they can play the game, manage their career better and then get the benefits that they really want like being promoted and like getting a pay rise. So the book and the episode we're going to be talking about today is about how people perhaps take ownership of their career a little bit and can sort of direct it where they want to go and become a bit more successful and a bit more effective with it. Yeah that's absolutely correct I mean the book begins with a very harsh statement which taken out of context sounds like I don't care about people but it's not true. When you and I were preparing for this we talked about the different types of leader and I'm definitely a people first leader but I think if you exclusively operate in that territory you can become too nice, too supportive of the employee. The thing that occupies your time the most is how can I make my employees happy? How can I get them what they really need? And sometimes you need something else right? You need the tougher side and I was never very good at that and I have learned how to do that and the thing that I put at the beginning of the book is you must understand this is what I tell my teams is no one cares about you right? This is a do-it-yourself world and you have to manage your own career. That's not strictly true right? Everyone does care about you but the minute you begin to realize that that what you get out is in your control and is also the direct payback of what you do for the company and we're going to talk about my hierarchy. The minute you understand that and realize that the company is in business to make money and actually your career is very secondary to them it becomes very empowering. You realize actually I'm in control of my career and there are some things that I can do that will make me more successful. Yeah it makes me think of the phrase and I really like this phrase about being first to your own rescue so so rather than sitting there waiting for somebody to come and rescue you know somebody to come and rescue you from a job that you don't feel very fulfilled in or for somebody to come and rescue you from a job that you don't get paid as much as you want or rescue you from a job where you haven't got a promotion for the last 10 years or something like that it's about taking control being first to your own rescue and doing something about it. Yeah and I'd add one more thing to that Ben which is also that sometimes people you know that there's more money sorry more month than money right their rent has gone up or some other life event has happened yeah and they instinctively turn to the company and say oh I need more money can you pay me more?
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Harshly that's not the company's concern it's your concern and you have to manage that and you have to take the right set of actions that are going to change things around and we can talk about what they are. Brilliant.
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Right first your own rescue so what I think we'll do then is based on that sort of context maybe we can break it into a few chunks and sort of dig into a few ideas because you think about things a little bit differently and we can break that out and think about you know practically tangibly what can people do and think about things a little bit differently so they can be first to their own rescue so they can be empowered in their own career that kind of stuff. Let's jump into the first one so what's the first tip or the first nugget of gold that you have for people? Yeah so I have in my head what I called the hierarchy and it drives so much of what we do from prioritizing work thinking about what we do in a given day but also from a career perspective it really helps it's called the hierarchy and it goes like this customer company team self. Customer at the top? Yeah and we also talk about customer being king but what does that really mean? Yeah. If you put the customer at the top that's it the company comes next and the company only exists to solve a problem for the customer and in return of course they get revenue so it's a two-way relationship but that's the only reason the company exists it doesn't exist to hire people and people people money and promote them they're byproducts right so it's customer company team now team could be a big department like marketing or sales or technology or products or whatever the company splits itself up and each team has a function and within each team so for example in technology you're going to have different teams within that and those teams only exist to make the company successful and therefore by definition by delivering customer value and of course the revenue flows from the customer through to the company that ends up as budget for teams that budget produces benefits for the people and that's the self layer now you you must you must manage yourself but if you exclusively operate in the self territory like I'm not gonna work any overtime right when it gets a bit busy I'm just gonna stop working because I'm worried about me I want a pay rise I want a promotion and I don't want to do that work I want to do this work if you operate in that territory you will not be successful because you are not doing what's right you as the self must make your team successful carrying out the hierarchy if your team is successful the company is successful the come the customer loves you you're solving their problems they pay you money so the hierarchy goes up and it comes down and so if you want to earn the benefits you have to create a value for the customer so that's what the hierarchy is all about and so how does that work you know if you're working for a big company that's just got some big products and you're let's say you you know you're doing this tiny little thing whatever that thing might be doing in one team of many in a in a many departments you know and all the sprawl of a corporate how tiny cog in a big news how do you get from self and and how do you trace that through yeah it can be challenging so the first thing I think is again it's a mindset thing if you are a tiny cog in a big machine be the best tiny cog that you can be like really look at the remit of the work that you are doing if you if you believe in your own head I'm just a tiny cog therefore it doesn't matter and therefore I'll just do what's required you'll stay there but if you think just offer I'm a tiny cog what can I do extra who can I go talk to how can I help not only my team and my peers but how can I help another team I see that this team constantly have this problem with our team how can I go solve that who can I go talk to you in management to say I have an idea who can I share my contribution with what more can I do what can I how can I step out of that tiny cog and make more of myself become sort of manage your reputation as it were internally if you do not do that no one will know about you no one will care and you will stay there if you do step out if you do do those things people will start to take notice and so is it a case of thinking right so you know I know what I do every day you know I might be writing code or I might be setting off AI agents to do things and reviewing their work or whatever I'm doing in the modern world but you're saying okay so I should as a self I should be able to say the the impact that I have on a team and then you should be able to say to the company the impact that that team has on the company and be able to describe that and you should be able to say the impact that the cuss sorry that the company has on the customer you should have a good answer and an ability to articulate all of those levels of the hierarchy is that what you're sort of saying it if you can it definitely helps for sure and again if you're in a tiny team and you're a tiny cog in that tiny team it might be very very hard to find that thread but if your language is about customer value if your language is you know we're a tiny team and all we do is manage this little tiny thing if you can say look if we did this faster our customers will be happier or if we did this in a different way that team over there will be able to deliver quicker so if you can find some other kind of connections from you know your little tiny cog world into the bigger machine so much the better and I'd go on to say you know we'll talk about performance reviews later on which is the kind of the big moments when you're promoted or get a pay rise or not preparing for those so if you can document what you do if you can track all of the things even if it's really boring mundane stuff like I was never late with my delivery or I did this and I did a bit more or you know come up with any piece of value that you know that you delivered and write that down keep a track record in a private log that no one will ever see if I call it a brag book and you can put in there as you know extreme brags if you want as long as it's true keep it to yourself it helps in two ways number one when you're feeling like demotivated or lost or just like it's not there's no point read it and just go do you know what actually I did do some stuff and I think most people who are listening to this episode of the podcast will be doing bigger things than just sort of daily admin they'll be delivering big pieces of software they'll be helping the teams perform they'll be doing other things keep a track of all of that and secondarily communicate this to your manager so if you're having a one-on-one hopefully every week every week talk to him about a couple of the things or sorry him or her a couple of the things that you put in hey this week I did this thing so you're not bragging and like making a show of yourself but you're communicating and you're consistently and constantly letting your manager know that you're thinking right that you're trying to deliver value and that you're doing your job plus plus okay love it
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let's step on so first golden nugget the hierarchy second golden nugget
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second golden nugget I think is that your performance reviews or so your your pay rises in your promotions are a lagging indicator of the value that you have created so if you think about that hierarchy obviously in a bigger more high-profile role you can more closely link the value that you have created but at any level you should be able to identify the value you have created the degree to which you create that value will be what you get in your performance and pay review now too many people walk into the annual review with a beautiful document that sets out all of the reasons why they should be promoted and why they should get a pay rise and they you know the way it generally works is the manager sits down and says here's your review here's your score and by the way here's your pay rise then typically people think okay now I'm going to bring out my joker and I'm going to show him this document I'm gonna say but look at all these great things I did right I do believe that I am entitled to more I think I should get a bigger pay rise I think I should be promoted the manager can do nothing about that right there will be some instances where they can go away and make some magic happen but on the whole it's too late and what I'd ask the listeners to remember is that process started nine months ago and the CFO sat down and worked out the budget they went to the CEO and said look here's your budget here's where you can spend the money and you've got this chunk of cash that you can spend on hiring pay rises promotions etc the CEO will agree that and he would divvy that up across those teams that we talked about so marketing here's your budget sales here's your budget tech here's your budget and then it will get filtered down even more where inside technology that money will get allocated out into different teams and eventually we'll end up in the manager's lap and the manager will know that he has got an amount of cash and he will probably just share it so by the time you sit down and the manager that delivers that to you you end up with that tiny slither from the big big pot and the manager can't go back up to the CEO and say I can have more money on the whole so you need to be in that process six to nine months before the performance review if you do the things we talked about keep a log keep communicating keep talking about the value that you are creating suggest ideas show how you're improving the business and keep drip feeding that stuff you're in a much much better place and the second thing I would do six months before the performance review sit down with your manager and say just like to let you know I'm aiming to be promoted at the next pay the next performance review I'm aiming to get an above-bar pay rise and tell them why and show them what you're going to do to justify that that goes into the manager's head and at the point where they get the pot they're already thinking about you and they're already thinking this this person needs to be promoted they build it into the plans and when you get that performance review on the basis that you have actually performed the managers much more likely to give you really good news at that point yeah yeah and I'd concur you know I did this process for years maybe 10 12 years I did this sort of process and lots of friends you know so as a leader as a manager helping divvy out that pot and all of that kind of stuff and lots of friends working at many of the different different corporates that are out there big machines and the other thing I'd say is that often that manager
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might not have as much freedom to allocate that budget as they as you might hope they do so what do I mean by that it might be that there's some HR guidance that says oh actually Jeremy you need to have three top performers and our culture at this company because lots of them are that we will disproportionately award our top performers because we want our a team to stay so suddenly you've got right okay so I've got to give 50% of my budget to my top three people right so now the rest are now scrambling for the rest and and actually if I'm disproportionately actually there's a HR rule that says you can't give any budget to anybody because you need to pay for those top performers so you're gonna have some some bottom performers as well and so the manager is kind of thick having to think all of that through and exactly like you said if you've been a submarine which has just kept your head down thinking about itself getting your day job done and then you suddenly pop out a performance review and go surprise! Exactly! Half decisions have been made, things have been lined up or if not lined up but you know Pete there's stories already the managers got support from other peers and other managers that have seen so so I wholeheartedly concur with with what you're saying and and the more if you don't prepare properly you're just giving your manager a problem that he does not want to deal with and you mentioned other managers again if you are reaching out to other teams how can we help you those managers of those teams will know you and when they do the analysis beforehand and they'll get in a room and go who's been good around this place and they say well Ben Ben's always on our case Ben helps us really okay good yeah all of that feeds into your manager saying Ben needs to be rewarded yeah yeah it's big so what you're saying is it be planful about it think about what success might look like communicate that effectively to your manager communicate your progress against it and also manage the stakeholders that are going to have influence in that meeting in that sort of managers review of totally people review so that your manager is not having to fight for you but actually what's lovely is when the other managers tell the story about why somebody's direct report is brilliant and and as a manager I I could just sit there smugly going slam dunk promotion yeah no work I've been there like you know typically there's a rating of five isn't it right no one really gets a one or a five right but people generally by default are a three and you go into the review meetings beforehand with all the other managers and go yeah I'm gonna give Ben a three right it's been his met expectations it's fine and then as you describe the other managers go what are you talking about Ben has helped us so much and you really I didn't even know that myself and it all comes out and you walk away and say Ben's a four I haven't even realized so yeah absolutely Ben has got a job to manage his own reputation if you like for sure yeah yeah any other tips that you'd have on on performance review or how people take control for their performance reviews I just think it's that I think it's about understanding it I think it's just don't leave it until the day you know or the week after when you're upset that you didn't get what you want it's too late yeah it's too late yeah just do as you describe set your target be clear about it tell your manager tell them how you're gonna do it track it record it communicate it and put yourself in the best position so that when they're meeting in those dark secret rooms before they talk to you your name is there excuse me your name is there everyone knows about you and you're quite clearly seen as somebody who delivers value yeah I remember earlier on in my leadership career I remember that I sort of used to think right if you do if you do the right thing it'll come out in the wash right if I do my notice someone will notice if I do the right thing it'll come out and I realize that that that that actually sadly doesn't work and so what I found works a lot more effectively because for me do the right thing is non negotiable I'm gonna I'm gonna do the right thing I've got my values and I want to adhere to those values so I'm not gonna do the wrong thing to get ahead that's just that's not how I'm gonna do maybe some other people I might do the wrong thing that's not me so do the right thing but then I would then say and then manage the metric so whatever that metric might be now if that's data and you've got to show that you've done certain things because that's the metric that's everybody's looking at that shows success do the right thing and think how do we manage and manage the metric and if the metric is the manager I would do the right thing and manage your manager so that they've got a view it doesn't mean you don't do the right thing but doing the right thing is not enough you need to manage those stakeholders as well you make two really good points I've been in many meetings where someone will come to me and they will describe themselves doing the job I did my job can I have a pay rise no you've been paid to do your job and I'll continue to pay you to do your job but you don't get more for just doing your job right you want the salary that we have agreed is for you to turn up every day and do your job to the best of abilities that you can so don't just walk in and go I did my job exactly everything you say describe the additional benefit the other thing I would say is be slightly cautious not to become one of these loud people who walks around saying look at me look at all the things I'm doing keep it real but but I love the word that you used submarine if you are a submarine I guarantee you will stay below the water you must pop up you must show you must be visible yeah cool so talked about hierarchy we talked about performance reviews you mentioned summit to me the unwritten yes what is that all about yes so this is something that I even talk about when I'm hiring so as I'm talking to somebody interviewing them I'll be open about this and too often people don't talk about it so let me let me describe a typical journey let's just say Ben that you're hiring and I'm a candidate okay to begin with you me don't know each other at all I might be vaguely aware of your company but you need don't know each other we're complete strangers and through you know searching and all the rest of it we end up together and we talk and we have an interview process your quiz me your colleagues and peers will quiz me I'll check some questions on you we'll go through that process and at the end of it we both agree yep we're going to do this and there's a job offer we signed that job offer and that's the beginning of what's called the written contract everyone understands that so now I'm going to rock up every day I'm going to work for you in return for a salary for a period of time the unwritten part is we all know that we we just don't talk about it is that it will end at some point now most often it's because Jeremy decides he wants to go and get a different job and I come to you and say really sorry Ben but I'm resigning I'm leaving the company
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alternatively you might come to me and say I'm really sorry Jeremy but the company isn't performing very well we've got to let some people go your name's on the list I'm really sorry but we're gonna have to let you go or it could be that you come to me and say your performance isn't what we need you're not meeting our expectations I'm really sorry I'm gonna let you go however it happens that relationship is going to end one way or another and there will be an end point and the people that handle that badly the company gets really upset and emotional that this person is leaving the company and they they treat it really poorly and they you know they do all sorts of crazy stuff that's really bad from the company's point of view equally from the employees point of view if they like you know just go well I'm leaving I don't care and I'm going tomorrow you so you must handle it correctly but the first thing is understanding that this contract will come to an end and past that point you become effectively alumni you know you're sort of I'm a previous employee of the company and you're I'm now somebody that you know so that the unwritten contract is just understanding that at some point it's going to come to an end and if you talk about this in hiring in making an offer in managing somebody you know be aware if you don't perform it will come to an end right be aware that if the company starts to suffer there could be redundancies that may be you be aware that if I don't get the benefits that I want out of the company or if I believe the company's not going in the direction that I want be aware that I may leave be grown up be mature talk about it and just accept it and don't throw your toys out the pram when it comes to an end so if we maybe take the two the two sides of this contract there you've got the employer side and the employee side what are the benefits to the employer so if you're a leader leading him what are the benefits to having that conversation you know you're saying right there on day one this is going to come to an end what what's the benefit of having that conversation then yeah it's very good point so so the another part of the unwritten contract is when Ben hires Jeremy you expect me to do my job right everything we just talked about you expect me to turn up you expect me to fulfill my role and hopefully do more that that's part of it the other part is that the company has an obligation to grow me to train me to give me more challenges to stretch me to take me out of my comfort zone to teach me new things that's the other part and that's also something you should talk about which is look I expect you know Ben would say to Jeremy Jeremy I expect some stuff from you I expect you to do your job but equally in return Jeremy not only we're gonna pay you we're gonna train you we're gonna give you new opportunities there will be opportunities for you to get promoted or whatever it looks like so understanding that that's it's a two-way relationship is a two-way contract it's not just about having a job and being paid then then the relationship across the time that you are working together is more meaningful it's richer and it's clearer okay and I guess the benefits then for the employee the employee so it's just clarity of expectations isn't it so you're just saying we have clarity of expectations this is this is what I expect from you and then the employee saying and and this is what I expect from you and if that comes out of kilter that's okay because things may come out of kilter either because of things that we can't control or situations and in which case we're gonna say hey this is coming out of kilter that's okay we either need to get it back in kilter or we might be heading towards the end of our relationship together as employee and an employer but it doesn't sour it doesn't become horrific it doesn't become a nightmare it becomes a mature conversation that you yeah chalk up to experience yeah and if you're being a good manager you should be doing regular feedback you should be having one-on-ones sometimes that's tough sometimes Ben needs to come to Jeremy and say when you did that thing last week it didn't go very well and the outcome was that this thing failed right it's bad feedback I call it adjusting feedback it's I need you to adjust your behavior what can you do differently to prevent happening again if you have the context that this is a effectively a temporary contract that could come to an end at any moment there's an additional context now I'm not suggesting that the first time you come to me with some adjusting feedback that's like the beginning of the end but if it keeps happening you've already got the framework to say Jeremy like you keep failing on this thing your behavior hasn't changed you're not adapting bear in mind that there could be an end to this contract and actually it makes it easier for you as a manager to have that fully grown-up conversation it also softens it for me because I understand if I'm not performing if I'm failing in my duties I understand that there is an implication so actually it helps us manage that relationship better and I think it's getting that balance right isn't it that balance of honesty and empathy because people are people yes and there is something that needs changing or there is the reality of the situation and if you just go in all honesty but with no empathy you can be pretty brutal and ruthless and we can probably think of leaders that are a bit like that yeah but if you go in all empathy and no honesty that's all like sparkles and rainbows and nothing ever gets better and probably results will be quite poor so it's sort of getting that sort of balance right yeah I think I was definitely much more in the sparkles and rainbows side like I didn't want to upset people I didn't I wanted people to like me right you know I mean that's human yeah and therefore when it when it got a bit difficult I had no framework no context I had no suddenly my behavior was gonna change right if I'm managing you Ben and all of the time I'm telling you how great you are and how what a good job you're doing and how much I like you and then something happens where I need to come and give you some adjusting feedback suddenly it's very different you're sitting there going what's happened with Jeremy like this is where's this come from and it feels much more impactful than if actually you and me had a really good relationship where there's two different types of feedback one is endorsing feedback so Ben you did great at that when you did that presentation and I saw the faces on the customers they were like loving what you talked about great job do more of that please versus endorsing feedback where you know we're in that customer meeting the other day and I noticed that you kept talking over the customer and I could see that the customer is frustrated the result was they're less inclined to buy how can I help you in future not interrupt so much right that's right so that was endorsing feedback which is the more the more positive and adjusting feedback which is the more this is something you need to do differently correct yeah endorsing feedback means I want you to do more of what you just did I'm endorsing it it was great please do more of that and then you know and you know that you can keep doing it adjusting is where I need you to adjust your behavior to get different outcomes so we cover the hierarchy we've covered yes performance reviews we've thought about this unwritten contract that the benefits of but to both leaders and employees and why that can those clear expectations can be good what's the final nugget that you got Jeremy yeah so I think the final one is understand there might be a better boat okay so what I mean by that is if you think of your company that you work on as a boat that boat is only going in one direction it cannot split in two right it's going one direction in a marketplace it's performing in a given way there's so many things about it which you cannot change you may be able to influence its direction if you're in the right position to do so but on the whole you're on that boat as I don't want to say passenger because that sounds too passive but for now that'll do you're on the boat if you don't like where it's going if you don't like the way they treat you if you're not being rewarded in the way that you think you should be rewarded if you look and see a different marketplace or a different objective it's okay to understand that there may be a different boat that's going in the direction that can take you in the direction that you want to go it's perfectly fine it comes back to some written contract it's perfectly fine to have the conversation with your manager and say for these reasons I'm not sure that where this boat is going is the right thing for me with where I am with my life right now and what I'm trying to achieve and I am actually ideally you say I am talking to a different boat if you are brave enough if not you say I have been talking to the captain of a different boat and he's asked me to join that boat because it's going to take me where I want to go that's perfectly fine and as a manager you should then just say I'm really happy for you I think it's the best thing for you right now how can I help this transition be as smooth and easy for you as possible handle it in a mature way so so basically saying when it comes to being you know do it yourself or first to your own rescue for your career you're talking about how we try and manage this how we go to performance reviews we're talking about how we've got clarity on expectations but sometimes that's still not working out and therefore go and find a job somewhere else that aligns a bit more closely to your values your salary the role you want whatever the reason that might be that you're not feeling quite so fulfilled just take the leap and go and get that go and do that next thing the alternatives are Ben that you can stay on the boat and be grumpy you can just walk around the deck of the boat moaning it's rubbish here why why is everyone working here it's terrible you can stay there and suffer you can stay there and not earn the money that you want or not be promoted all those things put up with it yeah neither of those outcomes are good especially if you're wandering around the deck being that negative moaning person everybody else around you hears it well either they're gonna think you're an idiot or they're gonna go you're right I hadn't noticed actually it's pretty rubbish on this boat and then suddenly you're being such a draining impact on that boat you're way better off just facing into it as you say I like your term about you know rescue yourself first don't stay on the boat move find a different boat go and be happy somewhere else but that's that's scary isn't it because that that that's the unknown you know at the moment there's all the things that you moan about but there's you've got a salary coming in yeah and the devil you know at the frying pan into the fire you've got all of those sort of dialogues that are going on in your brain a little bit so how do you give yourself that little bit of spark to think about taking that leap yeah so you're absolutely right sometimes there is no better boat right you the markets really tough right now particularly in technology there may not be a better boat well accept that just accept that with grace stay on your own boat continue to do everything we spoke about earlier on which is like do your job basically but also try and find to do more find reasons to be happy go talk to your manager and other teams about new opportunities see what you can do on your own boat first of all and if it's really totally unacceptable to you how much are you prepared to risk you know not many people have the luxury of just saying I don't like my job I think I'll quit and see what happens but go look you go talk go find you know it comes back to you you must take control of your own career and if it is that you can put up with the boat that you're on do it don't moan just accept that this is the best thing for you right now the best option put up with it but don't walk around moaning and being grumpy yeah and if I just think of my experience then of leaving Microsoft which I did after being there a long time and I had a great time there and I wasn't going around moaning going all that well with me but I did think that boat over there of running my own business that is a speed boat that I want to get on yeah and so I taking your present was just being proactive you know I planned that for about 18 months I think before I handed my notice in and left because I thought if I jump off of this boat and I've literally got nothing I and so that was saving up that was getting a runway that was planning so that so it took a lot of planning to then get off of that boat get on the other one and not drown and then some people some people wouldn't have done what you did right they just look at that speedboat and they're just feel remorse that they weren't on it you took a decision and you said that's where I want to be and I know it's risky you can't just jump in the sea and hope I swim but there are things I need to plan do them you know and if it is that the boat is a different company first of all the grass not always greener right so go check but if it is that you know the company or the role that you want in a different company is a bit above you or you don't have the right skills train yourself up you know you have a job you have a responsibility to train yourself up and be ready go learn their interview process go and find their values go and find what their marketplace is go and find the problems of solving for customers go learn all that then when you go in you're not just some random person like hoping for a job you're actually somebody they would look at and go hmm this person's got something about them they're speaking our language let's try hmm love it I've glanced at the clock Jeremy we are out of time it's been an awesome conversation really enjoyed it let's just do a quick summary what would be the key takeaways for some of our listeners or any of our listeners yeah I think it comes back down to as you described it rescue yourself first rescues a bit of an emotive word but like understand that you have an obligation to manage your own career no one if you just have this mindset that no one's going to come and rescue you it's on you it's on you and your actions if you can do that it will change the way that you look at your at your career and your work hook it back into that hierarchy and understand that the way you get rewarded is by delivering value for customers if you can just do those two things I think you're in a way way better position than 98% of all people yeah yeah now I know I would completely completely agree that you know and being able to articulate to people the impact that you on the team the impact you on the company the impact that you have on customers that that's rich and then if you harness that with the sort of clarity of expectations and and and then managing your sponsors not being that submarine I think popping all of that together really really important so I really like that and then having done the better boat thing as well I appreciate how terrifying that can be but also you can do it you know and you know my view was do I want to get to 80 and think about all the things that could have been or do I want to get to 80 and get to that point and think well I tried that it didn't work I tried something else yeah so I went for that exactly take control take control have no regrets you're right yeah don't take stupid risks but equally don't like build up regrets yeah yeah I agree fascinating conversation Jeremy if people have left this conversation and want to get in touch with you what's the best way for people to get in touch with you I think just find me on LinkedIn I'm sure that you'll have a link here somewhere happy to chat to people yeah yeah yeah please do yeah I make I may come across as like some kind of cutthroat uncaring person that doesn't care about people the opposite is true I really want people to succeed and I do a lot of coaching and mentoring on the side if anyone wants to like tap my brain feel free yeah I think it's a part you know people loving people and loving results isn't mutually exclusive and I think if you if you if you do it right well and balance it well it's very possible to get amazing results out of a great group of people yeah so yeah I completely agree with everything you said thank you so much for your time thank you so much for your energy thank you so much for your wisdom and insight Jeremy it's been an absolute pleasure thank you very much thank you so much for having me on Ben
[00:42:21:06 - 00:42:41:09]
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