Ben Pearce (00:00.824)
counter just to stress everybody out that little bit more. Right, the counter's done. Lip sync hopefully sorting itself out. Okay, so here we go.
Ben Pearce (00:14.978)
Hey folks and welcome to the Tech World Human Skills Podcast. It is wonderful to have you with us. Now, amazing fact, loads of people that listen to the show haven't followed or subscribed or rated the show. Now, could I ask you a massive favour? Could you do that? It really helps make the show more discoverable and reach even more people. Well, anyway, to the matter at hand, we are talking about
the timeless human behaviours that make tech professionals and solution consultants more successful. And our guest today is a seasoned tech pro. He's senior director of solution consulting at Thomson Reuters and author of the book, A Friendly Human in Pre-Sales. So please welcome to the show Ron Witson. Ron, it's lovely to have you with us.
Ron Whitson (01:11.751)
Ben, I'm so honored to be here. Thank you very much for the invite. This should be a lot of fun.
Ben Pearce (01:16.334)
Do you know what? I'm really looking forward to it. I've read your book, which I'll be honest, I can't say for all of the guests, but I've read your book, really enjoyed it and I'm really looking forward to having a good conversation. But for all those people that maybe haven't read your book or haven't come across you before, do just want to introduce yourself? Tell us a bit about your background.
Ron Whitson (01:38.397)
Sure, so I've been doing pre-sales and solution consulting work for about 28 years now. I've gotten to it very young, obviously, but before that, I was a programmer, a coder, a database administrator, all the most nerdy stuff you could imagine. And as we do most often, we found the least objectionable person like that to put in front of customers, truly. And thus I start my career in doing pre-sales. And it was easy for me. The demo part was easy for me. The technology part
Ben Pearce (01:45.262)
Hahaha
Ron Whitson (02:08.341)
was easy for me, but I'd get this feedback, hey you got to work on your people skills. What does that, what do you mean? I didn't understand that part of it and so I started looking for the instruction manual, started looking for the recipe book. Didn't find it and so what I did instead was I started trying to find people who were performing these things well and doing them better than I was and trying to figure out what I could learn from them.
and that really helped me progress in the role. Probably half of the time has been in leadership roles and I really now enjoy coaching, mentoring, developing teams and I've had a lot of success at it. So the book was an attempt to try to capture some of the stuff that I had to learn and share it just in case it was helpful for others. And we've got a lot of positive feedback. I'm very happy here you enjoyed it and I'm so really proud of the book.
Ben Pearce (02:59.5)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, no, I thought it was really good. And as I was reading through it, I was basically just turning each page. I was on my Kindle. So I was tapping each page going, yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, I agree with that. So I thought actually this podcast might be bit lame because it's just two chaps going.
We agree with each other. So I think as we go through some of these timeless behaviors, because we're just going to pick a couple of them and look through them, what I might try and do is put myself in the mindset of some of the people I've coached that push back on some of these ideas and some of the challenges that we get, all the bits that make it hard, you know, because it's very easy to say some of these great ideas, but perhaps it's a bit harder to put them into practice in the reality of a
high pressure customer meeting or something like that. So that's what I'm try and do because I agreed so much with everything that you said.
Ron Whitson (04:05.757)
We call that violent agreement, right?
Ben Pearce (04:07.246)
Violent agreement. We were in violent agreement, which could be a very boring podcast. So we're going to talk about, think about three, three times behaviors. How many times behaviors are there in the book? Maybe you want to run through them all and then tell us the three that we're going to focus on today.
Ron Whitson (04:22.109)
Sure.
Sure, I mean, as I put them together, these were things I had to learn. I put them in an order that I think is important, right? And the first one is be authentic.
Because again, you're most persuasive self when you're being authentic. And I think a lot of people, especially people who are good pre-sales, can sniff out inauthenticity, right? So you gotta be that first. The second one is listen actively. I was really, really, I was really bad at that, sadly. But again, you have to do them in order because if you're listening actively, but the receiver believes that you're completely fake, then it's to no avail.
The third one is show empathy. I think way too often we focus our presentations on ourselves and it's a performance. It's not in service to our audience. So empathy is really important. Number four.
is have a conversation. A lot of these presentations I listen to and I coach and I watch very much monologues. It's information going one direction and I just don't know how effective that's going to be over time. I really think if we can be engaging with our audience and have it be two-way conversation, we can learn so much more and we have a much better opportunity to make those connections.
Ron Whitson (05:38.339)
Number five sadly is another one that I was not very good at for a long time and it's practice humility. Again this is not our big demo performance like I used to think it was in the beginning. I would rock that demo bin and all my tech was perfect. I had the slickest slides. Yeah that's not what it's about.
Ben Pearce (05:57.517)
I keep wanting to make a joke, it's such a bad joke, but to go, I don't have a problem with that, I'm the best at humility.
Ron Whitson (06:02.969)
Exactly. No one is humble like me. Come on. Number six is all about how we communicate and it's through tell a story.
And number seven, the last one is leave an impression because it ties back into the experience that you delivered and how someone feels about that and what they're going to remember. And as you were asking me, you know, which ones we should focus on because it's seven and it's not a two day podcast. You asked me a great question. It's like, which are your favorites? It's like, Ben, that's like choosing between my children. Now.
Ben Pearce (06:32.206)
You
Ron Whitson (06:40.187)
I probably could, I wouldn't admit that, but anyway. think where we landed were some of the challenges around be authentic, listen actively, and then leave an impression. So one, two, and seven, if I'm doing my math right.
Ben Pearce (06:42.128)
Yeah!
Ben Pearce (06:55.746)
Yeah, okay. So maybe what we can do is we can dig into each one for a few minutes, think a little bit about what it is, why it's important, and then really practically, how do you do it and how do you get better and any tips and tricks that you might have for that bit. So should we start with the first one? Should we start with authenticity? What's that all about?
Ron Whitson (07:17.427)
Yes, so this ties back to when I first got into doing this thing. I was hired into it by a dear friend of mine, Shane Phillips, this was October of 1998, again, really, really long time ago.
And again, he explains the job to me is, hey, you know, we're demoing our product to people. And so not having done this before, I'm going with him on different trips and watching him in different meetings. I'm learning how to demo. And I start trying to do my demo like Shane. I'm trying to use his words and his click path and his narrative. And as I get into this, yes, I can do that, but that doesn't feel right. It's not me. He speaks a little bit differently.
than I do. We're both Texans, great state by the way. We both speak this you know differently. We have some distinct differences and and it really dawned on me early that I've got to be able to take what he's crafted as a starting point and then make it my own. Put my words around it, put my emotions around it, put my energy and my personality into it and that's what I did and so I've never been a big proponent of scripts.
but they can be a good starting point, but you've got to be able to internalize that script, internalize that information, and then make it your own. Put your own spin on it, put your own charm into it. That's really critical. And again, it ties back to if your audience perceives you as being authentic, it's gonna be much easier to build that trust and build connections and relationships as opposed to the slick presenter coming in trying to put on a show and sell you something.
Ben Pearce (08:58.082)
Yeah, but I've heard this phrase which I I thought I did quite like it I roll it around in my mind. Well, I've heard it and I've rolled it around in my mind that Authenticity is the new confidence So maybe if you go back 20 years ago, it was all about being the confident presenter, right? You know, and so you can imagine the 80s whatever you'd be there in a suit with the power pose chopping, you know, and and it was all about confidence, but actually
Ron Whitson (09:15.315)
Mm-hmm.
Ben Pearce (09:25.908)
authenticity is more important than projecting confidence and and probably if you've got somebody if you're listening to somebody that's maybe slightly eccentric or got some quirks or a very novelty that's actually quite endearing and it feels real and people feel drawn into it rather than somebody that's fake and plastic that you know a bad version of somebody else
Ron Whitson (09:48.851)
Absolutely. And how often in our line of work do we have a rep or an account executive coming to us and say, hey, just do Ben's demo. I like that. Do Ben's demo. I'm not going to do Ben's demo. I'm going to do Ron's demo. Now, what part of Ben's demo did you like? What parts of Ben's demo did you think landed well with the audience? Yeah, let's pull those components in. But I'm not going to do Ben's demo. I can't do Ben's demo. I don't have the accent.
Ben Pearce (10:08.674)
Yeah. Yeah.
Ben Pearce (10:14.219)
So Lucky you lucky you and you've got too much hair now the so so I guess a bit of the the pushback that I sometimes get yeah, cuz when I talk about this to people as well is What what if the real me is a bit boring and? Isn't really what anybody wants to see Like they want they want charisma party version as opposed to
authentic. So have you got any tips like for people that either feel well I'm not the guy down the pub with all the great chats or I need to amp myself up and be something better. What do you say to folks like that?
Ron Whitson (10:57.521)
I would say that's the imposter syndrome, little devil sitting on your shoulder whispering that in your ear. that is all in your mind projecting your fears and your concerns onto your audience. I would suggest that in this AI prevalent world that the boring, confident,
human, authentic you is super valuable, even more so than the slick person with all the answers. I think there's a real desire for this authentic, real, raw human stuff because people, mean, gosh, check your emails every day, check a bunch of the posts on social media. I can read something and have a pretty good idea in a couple of seconds if it's AI generated, and it really loses my interest very, very quickly because of that.
the boring you think yourself is better than perfect AI slop in my opinion.
Ben Pearce (11:56.461)
Yeah, no, I'd agree. would definitely agree. So how do you do it? What sort of practical things can you do to be more authentic?
Ron Whitson (12:04.979)
Mmm.
Ron Whitson (12:09.703)
So I think the first thing you have to do is kind of figure out what is your personal mission statement? What are the values you most closely align with? And then just be consistent about that. In the book, I talk a little bit about I really have kindness as one of my guiding principles. I really do want to be kind to people. Now, in rush hour traffic, I struggle with that sometimes. And again, it's just me talking to the other people in the car. I don't gesture and I don't do anything like that. But I talk to them and I probably show
That's not kind of me. At Home Depot, after I've loaded my car, I actually do take the cart and put it back in the place where it goes because again, I'm trying to stay consistently aligned to the beliefs and the values that I have. And so over time, that just means that there's one Ron. There's not a Ron at work and a Ron at tennis and a Ron at home. There's one Ron. It makes it so much easier for me. And I just try to be that consistent person throughout.
Ben Pearce (12:41.294)
You
Ron Whitson (13:08.739)
that way I say it's easy for me because I don't have to remember okay with Ben I'm this 4.0 GPA author guy and then with my tennis buddies you know I'm the Margarita Drinkin you know fear hand striking you know no no no there's Ron and it just makes things so much simpler for me
Ben Pearce (13:29.25)
But how do you then balance that, right, with adapting your style to suit the situation? So there's probably Ron the dad that's on holiday doing whatever, or Ron the husband, or whatever it is out of work, you know, there's that Ron. But then there's maybe Ron that's got to a really difficult conversation and tell a customer that something can't be done that they want to be done.
or redundancies of firing or what, you know, there's hard conversations that might be a different aspect of you. So how do you be authentic, but then adapt to the different occasions to rise to each of those occasions?
Ron Whitson (14:13.107)
I think that you can have a tough conversation yet still be kind, right? And to do that, I think there's two really important things you have to do. The first one is you really have to manage expectations properly. I'd like to think that the people on my broader team understand what the expectations are of the role are. And if there's a situation where they're not delivering of those expectations, I think it's pretty easy to have the conversation of the expectations are this.
you're not delivering this, I can still be kind. I don't have to be mean when I'm selling this, but again, you brought up a great thing about the dad. Now all the kids are long gone doing their own thing. Grandkids are the best, by the way. But you gotta have them first. We gotta figure that. But...
Ben Pearce (14:56.023)
You
Ron Whitson (15:00.381)
You know, in that dad situation, when you're disciplining your children, I'd like to think you're still being kind, but you've done kind of the same thing. You've set the expectations. They've not met the expectations. So we're talking about what is the impact of that? What are the consequences of that sometimes? And then how do we make a plan to not have that happen again?
Ben Pearce (15:19.918)
Mm.
Ron Whitson (15:20.229)
So again, for me, it's just showing up as the same person in each of those situations. And when I say the same person, it's like the same values are driving things. Honesty, kindness, but also directness. It is unkind.
to not lead someone down a path that's going to yield their best performance. It's unkind to allow sloppy work on a continual basis. That doesn't do anything for the team, it doesn't do anything for the organization. And I would argue in our pre-sales teams, if someone is doing sloppy work, everybody else is going to know it. And the longer a leader lets that person get away with the sloppy work, the more of a cancer it can become, where everyone else starts to think, well, Ron's let this person get away with it, why am I working so hard?
And I think it's just a really bad thing. One other thing I wanted to bring up as we're talking about this authenticity. There's actually a well-known pre-sales author, another person who's been around for a while. And when this person and I, I'm not going to say who it was, but when this person and I were discussing my book, they did not understand the concept of be authentic. Their pushback was, no, no, no, I have to be whatever my audience wants me to be.
And I disagree. I disagree violently.
Ben Pearce (16:37.772)
Yeah, yeah. Well, do you know what? think that's really interesting because I'm a proponent of two things and I think it comes up for you a bit later on. For me, I use the word like audience centricity or customer centricity, right? So you've gotta be aimed at what the audience want. It's not about I'm the big I am being authentic. So maybe it's the humility part more, but you know, it's not the big I am, this is me, you're gonna get what I am.
Ron Whitson (16:56.712)
Yes.
Ben Pearce (17:05.963)
but it's more going well actually I am here to help serve you and to be audience centric to be customer centric but I'm gonna be authentic as well and again sometimes that can feel like a little bit of a balance can't it?
Ron Whitson (17:20.301)
absolutely, absolutely and I think we have to give ourselves permission to not be perfect, to mess up a word here or there or maybe not remember a certain thing about a feature or maybe not have the absolute perfect answer to a question from the audience and be perfectly comfortable saying, you know what Ben, I've not had that question before about this particular feature. Would it be okay if I went and checked that out with the team and came back to you? I don't want to just guess at it. I want to make sure I'm giving you really good solid information
information. So if you let me follow up on that, I'll get back to you by middle of this week if that's okay. How many people in pre-sales worry too much about the ego and the imagined reputation and they have to be the expert and then they won't do that. They'll sit there and hum and ha and they'll just make something up and answer that way.
Ben Pearce (17:50.945)
Hmm.
Ben Pearce (17:55.81)
Yeah.
Ron Whitson (18:12.557)
And maybe they got it wrong. So again, I think that being authentic is you're not a machine, you're not AI, you don't have every answer, and you're not expected to. But you're expected to know how to handle that question. You're expected to able to follow up, use your research, and use your resources to find the answer, and then follow up. That's, to me, also being authentic. But you have to give yourself permission.
Ben Pearce (18:14.359)
Yeah.
Ben Pearce (18:33.325)
Love it. Let's move on to the next one. Otherwise we'll run out of time and we'll only fit two in, not three. So we've done authenticity. What's the second one?
Ron Whitson (18:46.781)
Listen actively.
Ben Pearce (18:50.733)
Okay, do you want to expand on that? What does that mean to you and why is that really important?
Ron Whitson (18:57.267)
I don't remember who gave me this phrase or when I picked up this phrase but I love it so much. It may have come from Michael Sorensen's book, Hear You, but the phrase is, I use this all the time, is are you listening to understand or are you listening to respond, right? And too often, too often we're all listening to respond. We're waiting to hear something and we want to make the smart reply, the quick comeback.
Ben Pearce (19:16.471)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ron Whitson (19:26.003)
That's not what we should be doing. We should be listening to understand. so that's what active listening means to me. hearing the words that the person is saying, watching the body language, hearing what is left unsaid, and then being really clear that we got the communication correct. So Ben, let me just check. What I'm hearing you say is you really enjoyed the book. You were in violent agreement with all the themes of the book. And we're going to talk about these three behaviors today. Did I get that right?
Ben Pearce (19:55.276)
You did, you played back, you've summarized to me, you've become an active participant in the conversation as opposed to like a tombstone just sat there completely quiet listening to me with a vacant look on your face.
Ron Whitson (20:09.277)
Well, and the opposite of the tombstone is me jumping in on top of you before you've even finished the question because again, we're all really smart in pre-sales. We know what the audience is going to ask before they even finish asking it. That is so bad. you know, listen, people ask me, how do you do this? You you make it look easy. It is not easy. Active listening is still something I work on because listen, there are plenty of meetings that I'm in.
Ben Pearce (20:16.213)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Ron Whitson (20:37.191)
And I have a bunch of stuff I want to say because I'm hearing things that aren't necessarily right, but I have to really practice discipline and wait to the proper time.
to introduce these ideas. And again, the reason to me why active listening is so important is it's one of these other steps where you're building this connection with your audience. You're building this relationship. And if we think about what our job is, where we're trying to get to this trusted advisor role, where I can suggest someone follows a certain path with a solution that they're going to purchase and be successful with, to get there, I have to get a couple of things right. I think I have to establish trust with this individual.
get them to trust me. The only way I can get them to trust me is by exhibiting these behaviors. You know, being consistent, being authentic, sharing with them, building this connection by actively listening and trying to serve them and help them. I think that'll start to build some trust and then if I add in the ability of the value I can bring, here's how your life is going to be better with this solution. You're going to save time, you're going to save money, whatever that is.
then I think I start to move into that place where I can influence them. But it all starts with these behaviors and building that trust. again, active listening is one of the fastest ways to either build trust or not, because we've all been in meetings with those people that are just throwing words at us 90 miles an hour and not listening.
And I've seen audiences completely shut down and they're no longer participating in a conversation. They're just giving the answers, right? You're gonna ask me this? Okay, here's the answer. And then I'm quiet. Here's the answer. They've decided that you're not listening.
Ben Pearce (22:17.101)
Yeah so active listening it's helping you really listen, internalise and actually get to know people and understand them and also showing them isn't it that you're listening and that you've heard them so that they feel heard as well as you have actively heard them. So how do you practically do that? Have you got any tips?
how do you practically active listen?
Ron Whitson (22:52.327)
Well, first is you put down the phone. And I say that, I say that because back not too long ago, I had a leader and during our one to ones, their phone was prevalent sometimes during the one to one. So I did not feel very heard whatsoever. I really think it is this practice of.
Ben Pearce (22:56.404)
I'm like...
Ron Whitson (23:15.505)
just remaining silent while someone is talking and not thinking about what you're going to say next.
find way too often you know again there's a there's a stat I don't have it at hand but there's a stat about how many words we can process versus how many words people typically speak the processing speed is much faster than the speaking speed for most people so most often people are hearing but they're formulating what they're going to say next and I would suggest that that's not active listening because you're using some of that processing power to do something besides interpret what it is that you're
hearing. So if people really want to practice this, the only way to practice it is to put yourself in a situation where you're having to listen without adding anything right away. And again, I think summarizing and sharing back, that can be really helpful.
A lot of times if we've got someone who is not a native speaker of our own tongue, think this playing back to be super helpful because sometimes there's going to be idioms, there's going to be different bits of language in there that may have different meanings. I think it's really super important that we play those things back. So, you know, when you were saying football, did you mean U.S. football or were you really talking about the football with the soccer? Right. So I think.
Ben Pearce (24:38.839)
Yeah.
Ron Whitson (24:40.307)
playing it back to be sure we've got clarity can be really important in those situations as well.
Ben Pearce (24:46.061)
And how do you practically do that? So if we take that, you know, 2026 as we record this, a lot of meetings will be digital, not all of them. And that ratio is probably going to change, you know, as time progresses. But at the moment, a lot of calls are digital like we are today. And.
you're saying to focus on that person but I've got slack open or I've got teams open my manager's saying where are we on that deal I've got another customer that's pinging me directly saying I need the answer to this technical question so how do you do it when there's so many streams of input coming in at the same time and everybody expects that instant response how do you then focus on that individual and concentrate properly
Ron Whitson (25:29.479)
You've got to prioritize it. First thing I did before we started recording was I went to my machine and I said, do not disturb, right? Because it is too simple to see that notification and all of a sudden I'm thinking about, okay, what does my boss want to talk about versus having this conversation with you? So we've got to prioritize it, number one. The second thing is, yeah, we've got all these competitive intelligence tools, we've got Gong, we've got all these recordings. I would argue Ben that it's even more important that we are able
to ask really good open-ended questions and then shut up and actively listen because we'll have all this golden content recorded that we're not having to take notes on.
And here's the deal though, if it's all there in the recording and we can go mine it with some of these AI tools, we've got to make space for the customer to give us this gold. And I think the way you do that is you come up with really good open ended questions, and then you shut up and you let them talk, right? And then maybe you prompt them to continue that line of thought. But if it's one of these where you ask three words in your question, and I cut you off, well, of course, we've got AI and here's how it's going to benefit you and marketing says this and it's only cost this.
Ben Pearce (26:24.001)
Yeah. Yeah.
Ron Whitson (26:39.399)
you're going to shut down and not give me that next nugget and that next nugget. So again, I think with some of these tools, it's even more important that we're able to do this effectively. But again, it has to be a priority. If you want to make a change, then you've got to prioritize how you're going to make that change. So do not disturb is great. If someone wants to grab at me because I didn't respond to a slack, it's like, hey, that's not real time communication. I mean, it's what I can get to it. And again, it's about setting those expectations.
Ben Pearce (26:43.33)
Yeah.
Ben Pearce (27:07.595)
Yeah, yeah. It's interesting, I was chatting to somebody the other day and they were saying actually the downside of all those AI tools that are taking notes and capturing tasks and all the actions and that kind of stuff is that it's even easier to zone out.
and just daydream because you know that you can always just go tell me what's gone on tell me what's gone on tell me what's gone on but then what that means is you've got all these people with all these actions assigned to them that they've got no idea because they've just been zoned out AI is catching it Ben's got this really important action they've got no real idea so using that AI it can be a wonderful tool but it can if you over rely on it it can it can make things even worse as well
Ron Whitson (27:48.371)
And how much did we screw things up with this move to virtual everything? I mean, back in the day, it was not an hour in a little box like this, right? The demo was four or five hours at a table with a bunch of other people, and you're taking breaks and you're having conversations in the hallway and you're doing breakfast together or lunch together, and you've got so much more opportunity to build those relationships. And since COVID, we took all that out, we try to do all
Ben Pearce (28:07.383)
Yeah.
Ron Whitson (28:18.325)
the same content that we're doing four or five hours compress it into one hour in this little box and oh by the way I've got one at 11 I've got one at one I've got one at two it's just it's just nuts there's really a lot that we lost in this move to virtual
Ben Pearce (28:23.691)
Yeah. Yeah.
Ben Pearce (28:29.281)
Yeah, it's hard.
Yeah. Right, I'm glanced at the clock. Let's do the third one. We'll definitely be running out of time. So we've done authenticity. We've done active listening. Both, think, really important. What's the final one?
Ron Whitson (28:46.407)
Leave an impression. And that's the last timeless behavior of the seven because that's what's really important. I saw a study that sometimes for evaluation companies are seeing between eight and 13 presentations. Think about that. Eight to 13. Yeah. Yeah. And I just worry that they all start to sound and feel the same. Where you've got the slick salesperson on the line, hey, how's you doing? Here's Ben, my sales engineer. Ben, take it away.
Ben Pearce (29:00.149)
Okay when somebody's choosing to buy some software or a solution they're seeing between you right okay okay
Ron Whitson (29:16.211)
And then maybe we've all got the NASCAR slide. And when I say NASCAR slide, excuse me, it's the one with all the logos. Here's all the lovely customers who have chosen us over time. And then I think we all have the analyst slide. Oh, the analysts love us. We're great. We're in the magic golden quadrant thing, And then through the demo, like, and this is really cool. And marketing says this buzzword, and AI, AI, AI. And again, when I think about it, this ties back to the empathy piece, think about
Ben Pearce (29:23.542)
Yeah, yeah.
Ben Pearce (29:32.716)
Yeah.
Ron Whitson (29:45.399)
person think about the audience you've got a day job you're probably pretty busy everybody's being asked to do more or less now your boss comes to you and says hey Ben we'd like you to be part of this evaluation for this new solution yeah sounds pretty good what it really means is all of a sudden in the middle of your very busy day you're gonna have these blocks where you're sitting watching this this demo this presentation and it sounds like that and then the engineer the sales and general solution consultant pre-sales person is going through all their stuff
And again, you're seeing five of these, eight of these, 13 of these, whatever the number is. At the end of it, your boss comes and says, hey, Ben, which one do you think? Which one should you go with? And there's zero differentiation, right?
So, early in my career, I started thinking about that. I'll never forget when it was, we nailed the meeting. Again, onsite meeting, we nailed the meeting, everything went well, audience was engaged, we didn't high five each other until we got into the parking lot. You know, tried not to do that in the lobby, you tried to get out in the parking lot, so no one else saw you. But as we're going through the lobby, we see our competition sitting over in the corner. We know these people, I know the SE, I've talked to the guy, right? We know our competition. And as I'm walking,
out there we're celebrating with all of our colleagues I'm thinking wait a minute he thinks he's gonna go in there he's probably gonna think he did a great job they may be high-fiving each other at the parking lot and I started really thinking about the audience and so what I tried to do is
I want people like me during the presentation. mean, I think we all who are good, all of us who are good in precepts, I think we have some of that people pleasing part of us, right? I want them like me. I spend energy and effort trying to build a connection that way. Virtually is more difficult, of course.
Ron Whitson (31:28.019)
But I also try to keep the solution really, simple because, I think about third grade level, because if I keep the solution really simple, then that's going to allow them to share it with their colleagues. Hey, yeah, this looks like it could do this, right? And at the end of the day, I want them to have a little bit of an experience because, again, I think they all kind of be the same. So if I'm going to be a little silly, if I'm going to poke fun at myself, if I'm going to do something unexpected, I want to create that experience because at the end of five, eight, 13 presentations, if they think, well, I liked Ron,
and it was pretty simple. They've remembered me. Maybe that's enough to get me the next stage in the evaluation. So that's why I think leaving an impression is important.
Ben Pearce (32:06.131)
it is isn't it and and like you say there is often little differentiation between competitors I mean as much as when you're working for a company of course yours is the best and it's head and shoulders and we compete and all these things but in reality there's a lot of competitors for most space and they're all pretty good and there's not a lot of difference between a lot of them so things like that really does now if you've got some competitive differentiation
Ron Whitson (32:12.967)
Yes.
Ben Pearce (32:31.157)
That's awesome. You know, if you've got some product differentiation, that's awesome. But if you haven't, you know, that right. You're right. The fact that they've made an emotional connection because it seems to me people do what what they want to do, not necessarily what they should do. There's some emotional connection, isn't there, with people making decisions?
Ron Whitson (32:32.423)
Yes, yes.
Ron Whitson (32:52.459)
There is, and again, I don't know where I got this phrase, but people make an emotional decision to buy and then come up with reasons to justify it. So as long as it's people buying from people, this is really important stuff. Now, once the AI bots are buying from each other, all bets are off, but there's still people involved so far.
Ben Pearce (33:00.589)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've heard that, yeah.
Ben Pearce (33:09.69)
Yeah, well, that's it. Yeah, I don't think I want to consider that. That's not a topic for today when AI is buying from AI and, you know, open claw for purchasing. Right. We won't think about that today. But whilst there's people involved, yeah, how you how people remember you when they get back to that room. And it's almost like when you go for job interviews, isn't it? You know, like they've interviewed eight candidates. Can they remember that you what is it about you that they remember? Such an important thing.
Ron Whitson (33:36.131)
Absolutely, absolutely.
Ben Pearce (33:38.328)
Wow, I think we've covered all three. Authenticity, active listening, leave an impression, timeless, and I love them, all brilliant. Should we just summarise? What would be the key takeaways for people that have maybe zoned out in the middle of our conversation and are just zoning back in? How could they have done it? What would be the key takeaways for them?
Ron Whitson (33:56.979)
How could they have done that?
Ron Whitson (34:02.519)
I think that the key takeaways are a lot of people who enjoy pre-sales work and who are good at pre-sales work have more of an engineering brain which sometimes deprioritizes some of the people connection stuff. And the people connection stuff isn't easy. It isn't black and white and it isn't just spelled out anywhere. So this book is really a story of my journey. These things I found that really helped me find success and that's it, right? I mean, they're timeless behavior.
because over my career, mean, I used to carry a suitcase size projector to meetings because not everybody had a projector and the sales guy wasn't going to carry it. I mean, they had to get the rental car. That was their job. I carried the projector and it was all client server, right? If you didn't have a good connection back to the server, you were kind of hosed in the demo. And then we went back to all on-prem stuff. Now we're to cloud stuff, which is just a different version of client server if you ask me, but there's been a lot of technology changes. And in the 28 years I've been doing
this but these timeless behaviors have stayed exactly the same and I'd even argue maybe they've gained some relevance and gained some importance so this is a skills that you can invest in that will serve you for the rest of your career bar nothing
Ben Pearce (35:10.679)
Yeah. Yeah.
Ben Pearce (35:19.137)
Yeah, I'd agree, I'd agree. mean, key takeaways for me is I reflect on it. So that authenticity, know, why that helps you build trust with people and people will buy from people they trust. And so that's really, really important. Active listening, I love that, that particularly when you're from a subject matter expert background, that idea that actually I'm just gonna listen and not wait to speak.
Ron Whitson (35:31.56)
Yes.
Ben Pearce (35:42.795)
that's you know just so useful and make the other person feel heard and then that leave an impression that kind of emotional connection something that they can anchor into and then springboard you know to maybe the other bits of the detail that you talked about but they've hooked into that impression and that's going to be the bit that allows them to to springboard everywhere else really really interesting now
If people want to continue this conversation, continue thinking about these sort of topics, how can people get in touch with you, Ron?
Ron Whitson (36:18.663)
Yeah, mean, well, please connect on LinkedIn. Just look for Ron Whitson. And if you see a tennis ball next to the name, that's me. I do play a lot. It's not with these rackets, but modern equipment.
Ben Pearce (36:27.755)
I was going to say, those are some old rackets that are there.
Ron Whitson (36:30.257)
Those are some old rackets. then timelessbehaviors.com is a page I put up about the book and there's a newsletter associated with it. yeah, it goes into a little more detail on some of the concepts in the book and it's available on Amazon. We've got an audiobook version. If you know Jack Cochran, Jack actually did the narration. He did such a good job and he's a great guy. Yeah.
Ben Pearce (36:50.285)
We've had him on the show. He's a friend of the show. Yeah, he's got yeah, he's got a great voice a great voice for an audiobook as well as a day No, no, you've taken the negative he's definitely got a great voice for an audiobook not a bad face for TV
Ron Whitson (36:57.863)
He's got a face for radio, right?
Ron Whitson (37:05.351)
He did a really good job. He did a really good job. And as you mentioned, there's also the Kindle version of it. So we've got everybody covered.
Ben Pearce (37:12.031)
Yeah, brilliant. Well, final thing for me to say is thank you so much, Ron. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the show, to violently agree with you about some wonderful, timeless behaviours. So thank you so much time for coming and sharing it with us.
Ron Whitson (37:27.271)
My great pleasure, Ben. Thanks for the opportunity and thanks to everyone who joined us. We appreciate you.