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Hi there, I'm Ben Pearce and welcome to the Tech World Human Skills Podcast. Every episode we talk through how to thrive in the tech world, not just survive. Now, if you want me to work with your team, just give me a shout. I love to help teams be more influential, memorable and successful with their stakeholders. Head over to www.techworldhumanskills.com to book a chat.
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Skills Podcast. Now,
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today we're talking about a Leadership 101.
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I'll tell you where this came from. I just finished doing some work with a big client on leadership, Leadership 101. I said of course I can, I'd love to. I sat down and I brainstormed, you know, some key Leadership 101 things,
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other ideas and some ratification.
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And so the person that we've got today was probably 4-4-5-4. First call
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to go and get his opinion and get his perspective as well. And so we thought we'd talk about some of the Leadership 101 things. So please welcome to the podcast Ben Cairn. Ben, it's cool to have you with us. Lovely to be here. Thank you for the call, I think.
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First call. Yes, good.
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It's brilliant to have you with us. I think something like that, podcast, definitely a friend of the show.
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Indeed. I said it because then I was actually right. So friend of the show. Of the show, yes.
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So it's lovely to have you with us. Just for people that maybe haven't listened to any of the episodes you've ever brought
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about your background.
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I'll give you the very potted, you know, history. I've been leading
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people managing for 15 plus years, working in IT software for 25 years.
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And yeah, probably the last 10 years, pretty large groups, support operational, customer-facing teams. So yeah.
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And of course, years ago,
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we used to manage a team, different parts of the team. So we were very close.
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We did. We all went our separate ways. And did many others. I managed to escape. Yeah.
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And yeah, here we are. And yeah, here we are. And so
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the idea of this episode really is for leadership schools. This might be really applicable if you are a contributor, if you're a new manager, or if you just sharpen the door, you're a seasoned pro, just sharpen that door, hopefully, or leadership schools
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that we thought would be useful. Absolutely. And I don't think, I think leadership isn't just people management. You can be a leader, as you say, an individual contributor with no aspirations to manage people, or indeed one that wants to take that path.
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So one of the key things that we saw foundation or everything else is trust and that the team that you lead, the people that you are leading trust you.
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Yeah. So that's what we're going to talk about a little bit. And in fact, there was a book that came out a long time ago. But I remember that both of us read it when we
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believed. And that was called The Servant Leader. And it was by a chap called James.
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And in there he talks about and he talks about a great way of being as being as the five ways of being. So I think this would be a really good way to kind of hack stories,
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building trust. Let me go through what he talks about five ways of being as the leader. He said the five ways of being are be authentic, be vulnerable,
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be accepting,
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be present,
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and be useful. And I think those resonates as quite a nice way of thinking about it. So I wonder if over the next few minutes we can sort of unpack each of those, what that means.
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Yep. And maybe think about some examples from our leadership career. Yeah. Try and bring it to life with a bit of colour. Yeah. And a lot of that hopefully will come back to me. It's been a while since I read the book. But those five resonate. I think if I was playing devil's advocate,
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thinking about your listeners,
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it could sound soft.
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And what I mean by that is we still have to deliver results. So I think that hopefully we can bring it to life a bit.
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Having all of those things, if you don't dig in, drive results and business outcomes and all of that, it doesn't mean a huge amount, right? So I think we, I often think about the Venn diagram of how you do those things, i.e. you create the fabric or the culture or the environment for people to do their best work. And then you have to drive the business results. And it's how you get as much overlap as you can really. So hopefully that makes some sense. No, I think it does. Well,
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let's start to dig into it then. So the first way of being that you think about it helps build trust and then through that trust you can generate results. You can do that as well. And how it's been that you've done it.
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Please be authentic.
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Yep.
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What does that mean to you?
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What it means to me is working in line with your values, I think, which again is a little bit easy to say and often harder to do. I also think it's about understanding a bit about who you are. So I think authenticity can increase through your career as you get more comfortable in your own skin.
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And as you know, we all pick up things that we like from leaders that we look up to, but you have to work out what you can use that is authentically you and what you maybe have to put to one side because it's not the sort of thing you can directly deliver on. So I think,
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yeah, I think it's around values. I think a lot of the people, certainly, that I work with over the last decade or more would see the same Ben inside and outside of work, really, maybe slightly different language or different humour, but actually pretty congruent with who I am and how I go about things and making sure that we do things in the right way. And I think that the foundation is that firstly knowing yourself, you've got to spend a little bit of time making sure you understand yourself and think of that from a value
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spread to a weakness.
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Yeah, all of those kind of and the value. What are, for example, maybe on this working environment where people are on the centre of the line and that is
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value to be and therefore and if you are in a place like that, you've got to maintain that all values are struggling.
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Yeah,
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and I think maybe for newer leaders, things like performance management or having some of those hard conversations, or we talk about conflict a lot, don't mean the sort of training and things for leaders.
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Some of those things maybe you can step back from or not go as real time, perhaps, in terms of feedback and things like that. I think if you, I often think now being a parent as well kind of helps because I've got two boys and it's not about being their best mate, it's about being their dad. And I think that's kind of like the stewardship, if you like, you have as a leader is how do you talk to people and be really direct and open, but with that foundation of trust. So I think authenticity is about just being able to be pretty direct and open and hopefully the trust allows you, the relationship allows you to do that. Yeah, and it's what is it? Giving me one thing.
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Listen to it. It feels like you said something else behind the door. Yeah. Can you hate work?
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I think it's as you start to leave. Yeah. Actually,
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hated for a few years. Yeah, I think it's the sort of owning things, isn't it? It's like, you know, if you're going to talk to somebody about something like, you know, I think this because of that, you know, not, I've heard this and it's not me that's saying it, but I think, you know, it's like, well, let's have a proper conversation, be more direct and some of that's confident, some of that's personality type, some of that's just, yeah, years of doing it, I suppose. Yeah.
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Yeah. Authentic first one, second one.
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Vulnerable.
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What is that?
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I think, I think really just almost sort of leading with when you get it wrong.
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So I think often when you pick up new, if I think about it, multiple companies, multiple jobs, roles, different teams, when you're trying to build trust, you want to show up as who you are, we've touched on authentic.
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And then you want to make it safe for people to get it wrong or to challenge.
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Right. And so there's a few different things there. I've had a, in fact, I got an example from some time ago, but there was one particular person that was one of my direct reports. He was a leader of a recently sized group, but he would be the one that would always challenge me in meetings in front of everybody.
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And some of the other team, the rest of the team actually spoke to me one to one on, you know, there's different ways to do those things. And I said, no, no, no, I consider him my mirror because he will tell me. But the beauty of him telling me in front of all you, as long as we understand, he makes it safe for everyone to do that. So I think, you know, different people lead in different ways.
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You know, you can say pretty much unless you're going to be really negative and not constructive, and that's different. But if you're challenging and you've got a position and you've got something to add,
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I think that's so for me, vulnerabilities about almost encouraging that and not shutting people down and making, you know, making sure you hear from people, even if it's directly on you. And then I also think owning mistakes. So sometimes you'll go, you'll I've got a couple of examples, but projects where we said, we are going to go this way. And then we've had to go and I'll be the first to go look, all right, we've tried this. Broadly, we're in the right direction. But we need to make these changes. That's on me. But thanks. Let's go. Let's pivot slightly and go off. And that's it because you want people to try things that are fairly effective. Do that. It's not all going to work out. Yeah. So if you create a space, fail. Yes. And you're happy to say, well, I fail. But in Spirit of Unability, we are on take two of the podcast, aren't we? We are. Because you failed. We failed yesterday. Yesterday, I tried to do something different. Yeah. And tried to use a different setup so that it would hopefully create some clips of it. And it all went wrong. The audio was wrong. So we sat here and recorded an entire episode yesterday. Yes, I got it all wrong. I tried something, put it all wrong.
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And so it's that. That's all right. That's all right. Yeah. And there were consequences. We both had to double the amount of time you've had to very kindly come in and do the recording again. I didn't feel great about that thing. But you then say, well, okay, that's all right. Because then that creates a space for other people.
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Yeah. And the other thing is, this is working this time, though, right?
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So and again, I quite often like to think about these were being led by, and then what your behavior is.
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And when you've got that, my way or the highway, I know what
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you do. So we've all worked for people like that.
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Smart people. So many other skills. Yeah. Not only.
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This person got no vulnerability.
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I've got an idea. I've got. I want it.
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Yeah, I think, you know, I think sometimes there's a time and a place isn't there like we've got to dig in and we've got to get stuff done. Yeah. But I think what I think what we're talking about here is not picking up a team and having three months to deliver whatever it might be. We're talking about how do you build sustainable teams that get better over the time and actually potentially get even better after you've left like that. For me, that's quite a measure. Like I've think about my previous, I guess, rack space. I feel like that continued to do very, very well after I left and hit some of the numbers that we've been driving towards, you know, and that for me to measure of goodness.
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Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting.
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Yeah, I think that I do think that in that balance, like wouldn't want somebody needs to get down. I don't know what I'm doing. Yeah. I'm very vulnerable. Hang on. I need six months to build trust. Come back to me later. And that's my that was the point at the beginning is like there's
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there's a continuum or a spectrum, right? And you have to move up and down the spectrum almost situationally. But I think what we're talking about is, you know, that I mean, we all see different stress behaviors. We all have leaders that have come in and they've got three months to to do something right. And sometimes that needs to happen.
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But yeah, we're talking about how do you build I call it the fabric of a culture that's that sustains and generally, but as much as we can talk about high pressure environments, bringing out the best in people, and I agree. But when there's not trust, you see defensive behaviors. And defense doesn't generally bring out the best. And I think it's honestly about saying you're under the. Yes.
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Yeah.
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And again, that's just building trust. That's vulnerable. Yeah.
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Yeah. And I think that's easier to do if you've had a group and you've built the trust. Yeah. I think you can still do it. But then you also got like, I think about delivering like the the cultural wins as well. So we'll probably talk a bit more about the kind of communicating well with people and doing what you say. And so you can do it in parallel. But yeah, it's easier to go fast with the right foundation. So let's move on. We've done the authentic.
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We've done vulnerable. Yeah. Third one.
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What's that all about?
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Two things in my head.
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One is,
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so if you're early on in your people management career, the transition from an individual contributor to a manager is one of the hardest, I think, because often you become a leader or a manager in your area of expertise. And because you're probably very good at it. So it's very easy to want everybody to operate like you do, or to your standard. Like this is my bar. This is what quality looks like. And because you don't do it quite like I do, you're not hitting the bar. And I think trying to get crystal clear on the outcome.
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So I always think about also things like coaching. It's not about coaching people to your style. It's about coaching them to improve their performance in their style.
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So I think that the big thing is working out how you, I suppose, delegate outcomes versus activities.
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And you kind of let go of your ways the right way. And you move to there's loads of different ways to achieve an outcome. How can I get the best from somebody? So it's sort of accepting differences. And we could talk about all sorts of different diversity, right? But there's also just diversity in how we work and how we get stuff done. And I think that's really delicate. But being accepted doesn't mean standards. Yes.
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Accepting the difference of personality,
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approach,
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lived experience, whatever it might be, you'll delegate outcome.
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Yeah.
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And I think that that's point two is that you've covered that really. Absolutely.
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Yeah. And yeah, I can't really reiterate your point more.
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It's all about letting people work in their way as long as the outcome is delivered. And I remember there was a work for built a team, basically,
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yes.
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That
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the version of the person, how of course, everybody, everybody, if you're very result, if we think about maybe discovery, kind of psychological profile, there's often sides of the wheel, and somebody that's very big picture might not be thinking about the detail, some is very detailed. Some is very result string about the harmony of the team. They might be obvious. And so if you hired a team of people that are just like you, all of those we are magnified and all those blind spots are things that we don't do so magnified.
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And I just remember seeing that, you know, you just see it for a while. But then you can't really just like me. Yeah. And I think you see it. That's where my mind was going a second ago. I think you see, like, team dynamics are really interesting. We've all led teams where like the star performer has found the next role and everyone's a little bit worried about how that's going to go. And what typically happens is that people step up and fill the void in different ways, don't they? You see the next person really step up to take that on. And that I think that's the almost the acceptance part as well is just understanding that there is a lot of different ways to organize a team to deliver the outcomes that you need. And that will evolve over time as well. And it should.
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Not it.
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So the authentic,
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vulnerable,
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the accepting. Yeah, but not of low standards. But not of low standards.
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Be present.
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What do you
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Gift giving.
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Be a present. Yeah, turn up dressed in wrapping paper. Suits in Christmas trees. Yeah.
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I think, yeah, you know, I think that the present is an interesting one, particularly when we think when that book was written and where we are today with remote working and geographically dispersed teams and all of that good stuff. So being present in, if we go one to one, so we're in human form today, which is would be a pleasure with the right company.
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And I think being present, like I've got, I've got, I'm sure we all have examples in our career that stand out massively to us of really awkward one to ones where you've felt maybe like you weren't the important person, you know, or you came away feeling, well, what happened there? So I've got two examples going back a long time now. One was somebody was fairly addicted to their phone and would scroll their phone a lot during one to ones.
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This is your boss. Yeah. More talking. Yeah, in my one opportunity to meet with the monthly if you think about it in those terms. And then often, you know, in an important role and all of those good things. But I think we've all been there. Just can you please put your phone down for 10 minutes and be with me and really listen.
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So I think that that's one just really stands out to me. And I would imagine they probably weren't conscious of what of the effect that that has. And then the other one was, I was actually in a performance appraisal.
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It was a 45 minute one hour meeting in person.
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And about halfway through, they just said, sorry, sorry, I need to go to the toilet. They use different language to that.
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A gentleman, my leader at the time.
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And, you know, I was aware that they weren't really listening to anything I was saying for the first half an hour. And when they came back, they said, right, I can concentrate now.
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You know, it's those.
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It's those. You got to go for the first 30 minutes. Yeah. Yeah.
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This might not be the right environment or the right group for me is, you know, so I think and you and I, if you touched on strengths finder, but you were to look at positivity within those 26, 28 strengths, whatever it is,
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we'd probably have it fairly up there. Definitely. I think it's my top one. I think. Yeah. Shock horror.
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Yeah. Who knew? I think
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in interactions you give or drain energy. And I think that's the other thing with being present. So I often talk about leadership shadow when I talk to leaders, you know, are you bringing up the energy levels or are you a drain within a team? And I think that that doesn't just apply to leaders. But if we talk about presence in leadership, even in a one to one, you can bounce out going. He really cares. He listens.
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We can we can do this thing or you can come out going. And it makes such an impact. Yeah. I remember that story you're talking about the boss.
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Yeah. I remember you telling me that story and it might have been at the pub. And let's just say the passion with which he delivers the story. We've made it for prime time. Yeah, I'm authentic. I've just I've chosen my language slightly differently. Yeah.
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Yeah. How to read. Yeah. And I find it with me, you know, that if there's something that's gone into the phone,
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and I find if I'm doing it, I'm evident.
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I don't listen. I miss things.
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And it reminded me,
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I was watching a I'm going to try and say his name right. It was the the Romash at Ranganathan.
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Right. I was listening to some clips of his podcast just the other day. And he had a writer on there. And the writer was right.
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People are writing writers. Got to second.
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And that is that have to assume whilst they're watching.
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Yeah, scrolling through.
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And they're testing weekly shots.
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Quite common in our house. Yeah. And therefore, you have to come down the script. Yeah, you have to make the character.
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Yeah. Historically, and nor should you for people with intellect.
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Actually, yeah.
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That actually a great way of doing.
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And call them out sometimes. Yeah. So I think I often have fire drills, you know, I lead operational teams with customer facing. And so if something pops in on teams when I'm doing a one to one over teams, it is possible that I might have to drop something right. But call it out. So rather than just be distracted over here, look, you know, and I've had it in a performance appraisal with somebody before, you know, can we this is really important to me. But I need to do this urgent thing over here will reschedule, you know, and people often, again, depending on your job title, people are like, I know you're busy. Don't worry. No, your performance appraisal is important to me. And we will do it. We're just going to move the time. So I think that that's the other side of it. You can, I think it's much easier to be distracted now when it's remote. And it's it's about I mean, it's a bit like you calling out your notes at the beginning of this, you're, you're calling out that you're referring to something as well. You're not just distracted, right? Yeah, it's a similar principle.
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England.
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So otherwise, I'm just gonna. Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah. And so otherwise,
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I don't know.
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Yeah, you missed a great soccer girl. But I did see the other good one.
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Yeah. Anyway, football aside.
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Now,
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that's quite a macro. But we're all geographically, maybe working with big groups. And what do you mean by being present? Not just when you're one to one? Yeah. Not when you're one to one.
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Yeah. I think there's quite a few different elements to that. Some of which I'm all right at. Some times I catch myself and I can be a bit better.
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But go back previously, I used to be in the States probably every quarter, had quite a large team in Texas.
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And so for me, it was about spending, I'd normally do 10 day, 10 days at a time, and I would spend some time out there, and we'd have some unplugged or whatever, you know, try and call it something interesting. You know, a cup of tea with Ben to bring out the British, you know, element or whatever it might be.
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So I think some of it's about physically being present when you can.
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That's not always possible,
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particularly with, you know, post COVID travel budgets and all that good stuff. But I think that's one thing. Also, when you're there, spend a bit of time. We had a leader back in the day that would just wander in quite senior guy and would sit on a desk and chat to people.
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Had a good understanding of what was going on around the world. And so could talk a bit about what was going on in different countries with different people, those types of things. So I think being present is listening, being interested and actually being there. And that's, I guess, a physical example. The other thing that I've done a lot in the past is monthly videos or we, it wasn't an acquisition, but there was a particular group that were coming in. I did a little video update to welcome them. I generally do like a Christmas video, end of year video to sort of celebrate. And then I would do monthly updates. So again, people can hear, and it's not an ego thing. It's just, I think people do want to understand, and they want to hear it from the horse's mouth sometimes. So I think that's important. I agree. And I used to do, I used to do two or three videos and the team I was managing was the ones that we were going through and looked at.
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And it made a difference at the end of the week, this is what's going on. So and so has done this just two or three minutes because rather than just email, whatever it is, and even though perhaps you're not building a bond,
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the bonding is a humanly. Yeah. And that's really helpful.
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And they build, like when you feel like you know the podcast, you feel like you know the host, even though they've got no idea who you are. Exactly. You feel like you know them well. Yeah. I had a guy come up to me in Austin airport and introduce his newborn to me. And we've never met, but he used to get my monthly videos. Obviously felt as great. I mean, how awesome is that? Here's my wife, here's my newborn. I know the name and I know, but I wouldn't have picked him out. But just to have that is, I think that's just a nice, it's not business oriented. It's not tangible in that sense, but actually it's a thing. And the other thing I found having moved from a couple of companies over the last decade or so, you don't always realize the impact of these things until after you go. Because people don't all particularly the more senior you get as well, but actually anyway as a leader, people don't always give you the feedback, but they will tell you when it goes. They don't always appreciate in the moment, but they do afterwards. So I guess a little message there would be, if it feels good, kind of trust your gut and keep going with it.
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And yeah, we used to, there was a couple of leaders managers within the current place where
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they would do what I would call a Friday rah-rah. So kind of to your point is what we've achieved today. Well done team. And you're sending people into the weekend. If anything, you're trying to kind of offset the Sunday blues. Do you know what I mean? I've got to come back to a massive support queue on Monday or whatever it might be, or I've got to dig deep, but actually we can be quite proud of that. You can have a moment of reflection. And again, some of those leaders would just have a 15 minute team school and just let's have a cup of tea in a, how was your week? Which is a nice way to sort of close the week. And I think like good news Fridays, bad news Mondays is the way I've always thought about that as well. Yeah.
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Right. We've done four of them. We've done the authentic, be vulnerable, be accepting,
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present, find one, be useful. Oh, the trickiest one.
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I was definitely thinks that this is a spread I don't have. Yes. She said useless, I think, in that context. Yeah. Be useful.
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Where my mind goes immediately is that transition into management. I think when you're an individual contributor, being useful is doing the thing.
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When you have, when you lead people all of a sudden, you don't feel useful anymore because the other people are doing the thing. And if anything, you feel a bit guilty that you're not. I mean, there's inordinate amounts of admins and calls and other things that you have to do, but it doesn't feel like you're being useful in a lot of that. So I think there's, I think it's an HBR article around monkeys on your back. That's a good one to have a look at, but it's how do you add value to your team without doing their work? So a couple of specific things. One-to-ones,
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early in career, often we want to take all the actions for our direct reports. Actually, it should be the other way around. It should almost be, well, how do you think you can solve that? Come back to me with a proposal and by all means coach and add value there, but don't do it for people.
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You have to. Being useful doesn't mean I'm not going to do it because I used to be the best at doing it and now they've been motivated to do things.
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Now I keep doing things that are really useful. You've got to change your approach when you're done. Because it will lead to burnout and it will also lead to not doing your job very well because you will be in the bottleneck.
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So I think where, if I think about where I would add value, there's probably two main areas when I think about my people, if you like. One is I've got to start performing, they're doing really well. My job is to run in the corridor ahead of them and open as many doors before they get there as possible. What does that mean? Understand their career path
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and be well-networked within a company, let's say, and it's all about trying to get those, you know, they can benefit from my relationships, they can go and have catch-ups. If they want to let, you know, focus on a particular competency, I know who the role model is. If they want to go to a particular part of the business, I've got a network, I can get those conversations going.
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And then coaching is the other one, so that could be a high performer or perhaps, you know, middle of the road or even somebody that's not quite where they need to be. I add value by two things, right? Confidence and awareness, I think. You're trying to build somebody's awareness if they really can't see the blind spot or if they're good, you're just building their confidence and off they go. So I think adding value is with and through people more often than direct
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in management and leadership roles. And so I remember when we did the episode yesterday, you had a great story about the pen, about the...
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Tell that story for a second time whilst it's recorded. Great, excellent. It's important to allow you to fail.
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Yeah,
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I guess really simplistically, I had a group of people, we were creating services, intellectual property and all this good stuff and we needed to make a business plan for the next
[00:31:26:09 - 00:31:37:21]
12 months, but loaded for the next three in terms of what we're going to create, how we're going to create it, what the audience was, how we'd roll it out, all the good stuff. So this person was a technical legend, very, very capable.
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And what we did was we met in person, so we had that luxury in a room with a whiteboard and a pen. And what I did was in the first half of the day, I owned the pen. And so I would put a bit of structure, we'd have the conversations, but I was scribing and directing a little bit. We had lunch and then the pen went to this person. And then actually that's where we saw,
[00:32:04:15 - 00:32:29:11]
well, a few things happen, but really he owned it and it was better than I could have thought of. And also he was the guy that was going to be delivering the plan. So he was able to feel really part of that plan and actually put the kind of meat on the bones and all of that good stuff. And so I think that's a good example. I think that can vary if somebody's less experienced,
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you might check in with them more regularly and coach and course correct. And if they're good, you let that timeline out a little bit further, give them more room, get out of the way often when they're better than you. And it's interesting,
[00:32:41:20 - 00:32:59:09]
this needs to come up a few times. About balance, sometimes what you need to do is keep the energy, you need to keep the energy and you need to get the value around the community. And sometimes the balance then is different.
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And putting it that way is the pen that you need to leave.
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Now, this is the time for you to come up with your diversity or whatever you want to do and you try to balance that, get that balance.
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And I quite like this idea that leadership is achieving results.
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Yes. So it is about achieving results, it's about your friends.
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But it's also saying it's bigger than one person on their own. And it needs to be able to create that mechanism.
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So it's that lead to the results.
[00:33:34:15 - 00:33:39:08]
Yeah. And that often takes balance across all of the things.
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Yeah, we always say with and through people.
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And that point is important.
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Leadership isn't
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looseness. And I just create environments where people do their best work, which is an excuse for not really getting involved or knowing what's going on. That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about absolutely knowing what's going on, knowing enough to coach people where they need it and give them enough room when they need it. But knowing what the results need to be and knowing your people and knowing your results. And you have to be close enough to make informed decisions to drive those results.
[00:34:15:09 - 00:34:23:04]
Yeah. Really interesting. You know what, we covered all five there looking at clock at that time. So we just wrap up the episode.
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Results are absolutely the thing that have to happen.
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The way that you do that, where you create forever companies or you create environments where people
[00:34:38:01 - 00:34:46:12]
keeps getting better and everyone looks and goes, "How is it?" They make that look easy. That is the right high performance culture built on trust.
[00:34:46:12 - 00:34:55:09]
And those five areas are a pretty good way to think about it. Yeah. No, I would agree. And I think that the reason I really like to be a part of my value.
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I like to be a nice human and I like to achieve stuff and be a great human and have fun at work and have relationships with people. It is possible.
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And I think we should all keep pushing. Yeah. And then I think that's going to be a good thing about knowing when do I need to be clarity in the way.
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When do I need to stay? Let's do this.
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Yeah.
[00:35:27:23 - 00:35:29:17]
Yeah. Wet lettuce. We don't.
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But at the same time, you don't want to be, "It's my way or the highway." Yeah. Good tone. I like that.
[00:35:35:14 - 00:35:47:19]
Well, I mean, it's been brilliant. Thank you so much for coming for the second time. Pleasure. To record this. If people want to get into it, do you like the second thing? How can people get out of it? LinkedIn is the best way. And yeah,
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2026 will be an interesting year for me. So yeah, keep an eye on LinkedIn. We'll see what happens. You can pop it in the show notes.
[00:35:53:23 - 00:35:55:08]
Yeah. The right Ben Kedsley.
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There.
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So,
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absolute pleasure.
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Don't go yet. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and rate the show. It really helps us grow and book new great guests. And remember, if the podcast isn't enough for you and you want weekly micro learning delivered straight to your inbox, sign up to the TechWorld Human Skills Weekly. Head over to www.techworldhumanskills.com to sign up.
