Ben Pearce (00:01.952)
Hi everybody and welcome to the Tech World Human Skills podcast. Today we have another fine episode for you. How to build rapport and relationships with your customers. Now I've talked about this before, knowing the answer is not enough. You need to be able to work with people effectively to get stuff done. Now our guest today has spent...
years in technical customer facing roles. She's been a Solutions Architect at Microsoft, Solutions Architect at Databricks, and now she runs DataLeaps. So please welcome to the show, Leaping Huang. Leaping, it is brilliant to have you with us.
Liping (00:45.834)
Thank you, Ben. It's a pleasure to be here on Tech World Human Skills. I'm absolutely excited to talk about this topic with you.
Ben Pearce (00:55.294)
Well, the pleasure is all mine. And you've got such great industry experience in some really deep technical fields where you've been able to bridge that gap between being technical, but also building relationships and getting stuff done with customers, which is so important. So we're gonna dive into that a little bit. But for people that don't know you already, could you tell us a little bit about your background?
Liping (01:22.328)
Sure thing. So I started off my career being in supply chain for a few years and I realized I wanted to do something more exciting and fast moving. So I learned coding in the evenings by myself and I pivoted into data consulting. And then I built different data platforms for different companies. Eventually I landed in technical pre-sales with my
Microsoft then Databricks now I relocated from UK to Singapore and I run a company called data leaps. I primarily work with a table editor so now I do things like technical pre-sales as well as Dev role type of role for Table editor. So I got a YouTube channel on a website. I write and create content mainly about
Tabular Editor, Power BI, as well as Fabric.
Ben Pearce (02:26.4)
Brilliant, so great variety and also working with some really big corporates, but also doing some stuff, smaller business stuff, so a great variety that you got there. So let's start to maybe dig into the main topic. Surely if you are smart, you know the answer, that is enough. Why?
is building rapport and relationships. Why is that important?
Liping (03:01.11)
I think that's really important for two different reasons on the higher level. The first reason is if you have a really good relationship.
you'll be the first person your contacts tend to call when they have a problem to solve, right? When they need to build a data platform, when they need to create a solution for, I don't know, demand forecasting or image recognition, the first person they call is you. Around them, they will have a lot of advisors that may be as smart as you, as capable as you, but if you have the best relationship,
you'd be the first person they call and that's important because that's a great starting point for technical pre-sales. At the end of the day, you are selling a technology to solve a problem. So if you are the first person they contact when they have a problem to solve, you are one step ahead of all of your competitors. I think that's really, really is the reason you want to be in a position that you have a very good relationship with your customers because
when they encounter a problem internally, they're like, okay, we need a vendor to solve this problem. You're the first one they think of. And the second reason I think it's important is on the personal level, it opens up a lot of future job opportunities. Like I haven't...
sort of applied to a job for better part of 10 years now. This is because all of the relationships you build, all of the impressions you made on people at some point come back to you in your career. They know you're good. They have worked with you. They would like to hire you in the future or they will introduce you, recommend you to someone else they know. So for your own career development, having a really good relationship with your customer.
Liping (05:04.175)
works out for you as well.
Ben Pearce (05:07.604)
So, I guess the first thing, when you were talking about the first part there, you were talking about this idea that you've got a relationship with the people that you're working with, they therefore call you first. Is that what?
relationships important? If you're in more of a transactional role, you know what you were talking about there was maybe where you've got one or two really big enterprise type customer environments that are in your portfolio or whatever and and that's great so you get the time to build those relationships over months over years working with them.
Does the same thing apply if you're in a more transactional type role where you are, you know, somebody calls the phone and says, go and speak to customer X, the next day it's customer Y, the next day it's customer Z. How's that the same and how's that different?
Liping (05:58.816)
It's very good question. It's same and different in a way that...
In a big corporation, an enterprise customer tend to work with a lot of vendors, right? So a lot of vendors will shower them with maybe dinner, maybe wine and cheese, and a lot of attention, right? So if you have a better relationship with your customer than your competitors, you tend to be a step ahead. And also being in these kind of very transactional role, you're working with 20 customers at any given time.
and you can't afford to spend as much time building relationships versus when you're working with one or two like enterprise or strategic customers. At that level when you're transactional, when you're in and out, still make sure that the time you're spending with your customers are quality time and every time you spend time with them you are able to solve the problem for them and again these are smaller customers they tend not to get as much
attention from everybody else because they're SME maybe they're smaller maybe their revenue is not as high so typically a lot of vendors won't spend a lot of time on these customers if you have like a decent
relationship with these every meeting you have with them you are able to solve some of the problems they tend to like you better because they are thinking I'm not getting any love from your competitor but every time you talk with me you're able to help me out so that's a way to build a relationship as well like being very transactional at times
Ben Pearce (07:44.616)
Yeah, okay. Well, shall we start to maybe dig into some of those really practical and really tangible things that you can do to build those relationships with customers? So, what are the tips and the advice that you've got for us?
Liping (08:02.849)
I think the first thing you have to be is technical. It's technical pre-sales and the technical comes before pre-sales. like I tend to see vendors kind of hire two type of persona. One is they come from a technical background, they're data scientists, data engineers, and then you hire them to do like pre-sales role or you hire people who have pre-sales background, but it's not as
Ben Pearce (08:12.128)
Okay.
Liping (08:32.863)
familiar with your technology and maybe they come from a drag and drop background, maybe they come from a different technology that's a bit further away and then they have to learn your technology. I think once you're in this role, regardless of what background you come from, you have to be technical because you don't want to be in a customer meeting where every question they ask you're like I'm gonna find out and come back to you and then at the end of the meeting they feel like they waste
it an hour with you because they could have just emailed you all the questions and you find out the answer and then come back to them. like there's a balance to be achieved in the way that you don't have to know the answer to every single question and that's really important as well because if you don't know the answer you have to be brave enough to say I don't know the answer but I'll find out for you that's completely fine.
But at the same time, you also don't want to be in the position that you don't know anything and you need someone else to rescue you out of the, you know, ask me anything session, that kind of thing. So you need to know like a bulk of the answers and then some very deep dive specific questions you can go and find out later.
Ben Pearce (09:51.614)
Yeah, and what you just said there about saying when you don't know is so important. It takes me back to my hiring days. I spent many years hiring engineers, consultants, architects, and we'd ask them a question and we would try and take everybody as far as they could go. And some people that wasn't so far. Some people, wow, what knowledge that they've got. But everybody gets to a point where they don't know something.
And that just used to be really interesting to how they would react because there is nothing worse than the blagger, you know, who just says, yeah, I know this and then starts and sends you down a path that's just completely wrong. And we're just like, well, that's the wrong answer. And they're just going down and they're just trying to blag. What we were always looking for was people that would say, I don't know. And then that gave us the opportunity to do two things. One, brilliant.
there's some humility there that says, they don't know the answer to this. And then secondly, you could start to go from a principles, well, tell me what do you know? And they go, well, I know this and I know this. So therefore, maybe I would guess, my educated guess that it would be this. And then you could see people's logical thinking and see how they think through a problem. But all of that came from saying, I don't know. And that was such an important thing for technical people to say.
Liping (11:17.523)
Exactly. I've failed people in interviews before for sort of throwing something at the wall and hope it sticks kind of thing. Like when we're doing interviews, we are interviewing you, asking you technical questions, pretending we are in a real situation. If you can, try to throw something at the wall and hope it sticks.
Ben Pearce (11:26.85)
Hahaha
Liping (11:40.246)
like to your point, we're afraid in a real customer interfacing situation, you will also be just pull something out of thin air and answer customers that question like your made up answer. And that's really dangerous because that's very
damaging to the trust that customers starting to build in you. You want to give them solid technical answers or at least you know like where to find the answers or find them help internally. You don't want to just give them a fake answer and then they will start to think that you're not good enough of a trusted advisor or worse start to think this is not a very good technology to work with.
Ben Pearce (12:27.294)
Yeah and then I think if you do say no
it's really important then that you note down that question. So if we move out of the interview scenario and we're now in the right, working with customers or stakeholders, say I don't know, jot down the question and then go and find the answer and come back to them in a timely manner. There's nothing worse than just that person that says, don't know, I'll get back to you and then never gets back to you. So that is a guaranteed way to reduce trust is to not do the things that you've you do.
Liping (12:49.963)
finish.
Liping (12:57.556)
Exactly.
Ben Pearce (13:00.898)
So fast paced at the moment, I guess what would be your top tips for people that need to ramp up quickly on a topic? Is there any tried and tested methods that you've seen that works with people well?
Liping (13:12.257)
I think.
like you said, tech is evolving very fast. It's also very broad, right? So like when I started at Microsoft, I had this like imposter syndrome going like everybody else around me knows everything. I don't know anything. And the way I sort of got over it is to stay really, really narrow and deep on something, something I really, really liked. Just one technology going like all the way
in with that particular technology which is Power BI at the time so I try to look at all the release nodes, the technical blogs, all the YouTube channel I can find and luckily like you said things evolve really fast so you don't have to go to like
Material from four years old that's likely not valid anymore So you look at recent year blogs recent year YouTube videos and also as you get better at a single technology I find going to conferences and listening to these like talks that people do are also very helpful because that's real problems people are solving and Like the cutting-edge technology they're working with so I tend to sort of organize user groups or
go to user groups and attend conferences quite a bit, just to stay up to date with what's happening as well.
Ben Pearce (14:38.343)
yeah technical skills so we've covered they're important and it's important to say when you don't know and do something about it what other tips have you got for sleeping
Liping (14:50.283)
I think the second tip is a of a soft skills. So on one hand, you have a strong technical skill, which is good, that can be learned by, you you're doing testing and you're learning. On the other hand,
that's slightly difficult to learn. Some people come with it, some people just have that, some people have to consciously develop that, which is empathy. I think to understand your customer, who you're working with, what their challenges are, not selling for the sake of selling, not build a relationship for the sake of selling, but build a relationship for the sake of you understand your customers, you understand your challenges,
make that bridge of how your technology can solve their problem or can help them sell themselves internally in their environment. I think that's really really important. That is a really good skill for customers to have a deep level of trust and a greater level of relationship with you as well.
Ben Pearce (16:04.775)
Yeah, and it's funny you say that. I I think back through the years where you will find people in tech that are working in a particular tech product and their company is pushing whatever thing. And the answer is that thing. Now, what's the question? And I remember the jokes, you know, used to be when SharePoint came out from Microsoft, it was the answer's SharePoint. Now, what's the question? And then I think probably now is it the answer's Fabric? You know, now what's the question? And so it was very much, we are pushing this product.
Liping (16:24.994)
Thank
Ben Pearce (16:34.175)
and we are deploying this to you. Now, what is your problem that we are trying to fix? And if there isn't a problem, we'll make it up because you're using this technology, whatever it is, but you're saying that actually isn't a great way to go about it. And actually it's about empathy and about exercising curiosity with those customers.
Liping (16:55.319)
Yeah, because.
Again, if you put yourself in your customer's shoes, you are saying, fabric is the answer. Databricks is saying, lake house is the answer. Snowflake is saying, their solution is the answer. So you're like, nobody cares about what I try to do or what my problem is. Everybody's just trying to shove their solution down my throat. I try to build a solution to solve this particular problem.
wanted to help me solve this problem, right? So put yourself in your customer shoes. Their KPI at the end of the day is not use however much fabric, not how you consume however much in data breaks, is to solve the problem they need to solve so that their career moves forward or their department meets the targets and everything. So think about whoever your
counterpart in your customer is at the end of the day what helps them achieve their target and how your solution can help them get there rather than how much can they consume
insert your technology and like how can I help them move their project half a year forward so I can meet my sales target. Customers are not going to move their project timeline forward just because you can meet your sales target. They're going to do things their own way. They have their budget, they have their timelines and think about how you can help them rather than how they can help you.
Ben Pearce (18:43.879)
And that can be a tough balance right because everybody, certainly if you're working in pre-sales, has got this kind of idea of a revenue target they need to hit and that sits within a financial year and they've got to, and as you said, customers don't work to your financial years, they work to theirs and they work to their goals. So how do you balance the doing the right thing for the customer and meeting your
financial goals, the goals that you've got for your revenue targets.
Liping (19:19.113)
That's a very good question. Take a very easy example, optimization, right? So if you're doing the right things for your customer, you're optimizing the workload. And then that's in turn hurting your top line because your consumption is going down. But.
Ben Pearce (19:31.743)
Absolutely.
Liping (19:39.124)
if you're just doing the right thing for your customer, at the end of the day, you're gonna go home with less money, right? That said, I think there is, again, the relationship comes in, also the longer term planning comes in to say, dear customer, we're gonna help you optimize this much workload so you can spend less money, runs these like same amount of work that you need to run.
in exchange for optimizing this much workload, we're going to help you build out this and this in this use case so your top line still grows or it grows
like not as much as if you don't optimize but you're spending a little bit more money getting that much more value out of this right so it is a conversation to be had and like you can't do this kind of quick for crawl conversations without having a very good relationship neither so like you have to establish the trust
Ben Pearce (20:35.207)
Yeah. Yeah.
Ben Pearce (20:46.825)
Yeah.
Liping (20:50.837)
have the relationship and then say, dear customer, can see that your workload have like a 30 % chance, 30 % cost that can be optimized while we're optimizing that. You said you wanted to do this and this and this earlier in the year. Can we also get those going with the money that we're helping you to save? That kind of thing.
Ben Pearce (21:15.081)
Yeah.
And so it's interesting because what we're talking about there is actually it's a bit of time. So firstly, it's having that conversation said, right, well, we've reduced this money here, which allows us to fix this other problem that you've got. And so it's a net net, you know, it's positive for you as the vendor and it's positive for the customer. So it's like that that kind of win win situation. But that comes, like you say, with trust and that comes with a bit of time. And so often people are flip flopping around account territories are being recarved. You're off this account, you're off.
that account and actually what you're saying there is if you can spend a bit of time with people a bit of the same personnel that really helps as well as opposed to this flip-flopping around a little bit because you get to build those relationships and about the empathy you know some people are very naturally empathetic some people aren't naturally empathetic so are there any i guess key practical tips on on how you build your empathy muscle
Liping (22:16.213)
I think so I tend not to agree with vendors who hire graduates as solution architects or technical pre-sales as first role they do.
Some of the vendors I worked for previously hired people who have been head of data. I was head of data before I was hired as I see a solution architect. So if you've been there, if you've been in that role, you understand what challenges she had in terms of head count, in terms of skills development, in terms of, you know, project timeline you have to deliver and all that. So if you've been in that role,
helps. If you haven't, I think one really, really important thing to do is to ask questions. Don't just give them a deck that your corp had made to say this is a deck to sell in such technology. Ask questions on
What keeps you up at night? If I can help you with anything, like what are you helping with? You're going to board to ask for budget next week. Is there anything I can help you to help you convince the board with? Don't be afraid to ask questions because sometimes asking those questions will give you the answers that you need to help your customer in the right way.
Ben Pearce (23:47.104)
Okay, brilliant. So tech skills, we've done that. Empathy, done that. What other best practice have you got for us for building rapport and relationships with customers?
Liping (24:02.209)
I think one thing that's also equally important as much as being technical and being empathetic is the ability to explain things, to make things easier to understand.
Ben Pearce (24:15.186)
Okay.
Liping (24:17.609)
you're working with that technology day in and day out. You're the expert in that technology. Your counterparting or customer might not be, right? Like they probably spend a portion of their day in the technology versus you spend 100 % of your time in the technology you're working with. And also if you're working with a higher level counterparts like the directors, VPs, CXOs, they tend not to be
day-to-day anymore they might not understand the day-to-day challenge and the technical challenge anymore so the idea is you are able to explain things to both these kind of audience people who are not as proficient as you in that technology and people are no longer day-to-day they might be once upon a time very technical today they might not be just because they spent their day doing like
managerial tasks and you have to kind of explain the value you are bringing or your technology is bringing to the organization to these people so making things really easy to understand like use analogies and and
like examples, try to get people to see things in a very simple way is really important, I think.
Ben Pearce (25:49.118)
Yeah, yeah, I love a good analogy. And do know what? It must have been a year or so ago on this very podcast, Marco Tomasi from AWS.
a whole thing on how to use analogies. In fact he'd written a whole book on how to use analogies to explain complicated things and I think the analogy he was talking about was pasta. He's an Italian guy so of course it was pasta and he was talking about like if you think of a pasta and sauce if you just do the technical technical technical it's like eating dry pasta with no sauce but now if you start
you know, put in some analogies, you can bring it to life, you put in some jokes, some humour, you relate it to other things, then suddenly that's like adding the sauce and suddenly now you've got a wonderful dish as opposed to just a dry bit of pasta sort of sat there that people are chewing through. So yeah, no, I couldn't agree more. It's a really important thing. And the other thing I love that you said there is it's about different audiences, isn't it?
I think sometimes a lot of people will tell you you just need to always talk about the business outcome, know, talk about, which is of course what you do need to do for a lot of the higher level type executives that you're talking to. But if you're working with the deep implementation team, the technical influences of a company, they want to know how it's all going to plug together, like because they're looking for bits that are going to go wrong, how it's not going to work, how it makes their life easier.
So you do need to be able to that audience to be able to bring it to life for a deeply technical audience as well as that kind of business outcome type audience. They're different audiences, aren't they?
Liping (27:37.346)
Absolutely, and when you make...
analogies, it's better if you have different analogies for different audiences as well. Like, will make like coding jokes, hit the GitHub jokes with the technical people and something like, you know, stock markets and golf with the business people. I tend to find relationship analogies works like fine with absolutely everybody because that's a common kind of
point that everybody can understand.
Ben Pearce (28:13.247)
And when you say relationship analogies like wife, husband, girlfriend, sister, know, sort of those sorts of...
Liping (28:17.365)
Yeah, like exactly. like things like we used to say, if you are a technical pre-sales person, don't straight up talk to your customer about your performance, right? That's not a good sales tactic. Think about when you go to a bar and talk to a girl, right?
You walk up to the girl, what do you talk about? You talk about the girl, right? You don't go up to the girl and say, my performance is really good, right? The girl will be like, what the hell? So again.
Ben Pearce (28:51.305)
Ha ha!
That's where I've been going wrong!
Liping (28:56.525)
Right, exactly. So as a technical pre-sales person, you also don't go up to your customer and go, hey, my performance is really good. You go up to the customer and talk about the customer, understand what your customers needs and challenges are. So that's the type of analogy that everybody understands, like not just, you know.
Ben Pearce (29:20.03)
Yeah.
Liping (29:23.381)
like sometimes nerdy jokes works as well.
Ben Pearce (29:26.143)
Yeah, it just brings it to life doesn't it? So we've done technical skills really important, empathy, asking questions, brilliant, analogies like when you walk up to a girl in the bar as you've just told us and then what and how that brings it to life make it makes it more fun. Anything else?
Liping (29:29.547)
Yeah, indeed.
Liping (29:48.108)
I think the last thing is really just being likeable, being helpful.
I being like one being helpful is sort of like helpful, useful in every scenario doesn't matter what role you are in. But particularly in technical pre cells, I think if you're likable and you feel helpful to your customer, naturally, like you have a very good foundation to to be in a very good relationship with your customer. Obviously, like, you know, like you said, follow up on the things that you said
you do, being very approachable, being very attentive helps. It does tend to be slightly harder when you are.
in a like transactional role so in some companies called commercial roles so you have like 20 30 40 customers and you're jumping in and out kind of going to meetings solve this problem come out next meeting a different customer those are a little bit difficult that said if you if you kind of
again do every meeting in the same kind of approachable and helpful format. Hopefully you have a good baseline of relationship with everyone you need to work with as well.
Ben Pearce (31:13.873)
yeah and i sort of remember when i was doing that sadly many years ago now but i remember in those sort more transactional type things just simple things like if you just smiled right so you start with a with a smile ask some questions then just listen
right? Which are all just simple things to do. Smile, ask question, listen. Then, as that you understand their problems, try and solve them, you know, relatively quickly if you can. And the other thing if you keep going in and out was then is sharing that kind of reusable
Online content, isn't it? Because, you know, the same sorts of things are going to come up. You haven't maybe got time to go through why this fixes the problem or why this is or what. So if you've got those reusable resources that you can then share with people, those were all sort of tools that you could use again and again and again in those more transactional type situations.
Liping (32:12.425)
Absolutely. I tend to start write a blog about something or create a YouTube video about something if I get asked the same question the third time. I figure if comes up the third time, it will come up over and again. So then it becomes a blog post or YouTube video. So yeah, it is very useful to have these kind of reusable content. And if you develop enough of these or collect enough of these, doesn't have to be created by yourself.
But if you know enough of these resources, later these transactional meetings becomes quite easy to handle because it doesn't matter what customer question you face. There's always a link you can send or a video you can send. It's quite easy to handle those kind of meetings later on.
Ben Pearce (33:04.829)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, if people have found this kind of topic quite useful and think, do you know what I could do with a bit of time, you know, investing in some of these softer skills. I mean, what would your experience be? What should people do next that have maybe got that great technical depth but want to build those sorts of skills? What should people do next?
Liping (33:32.182)
I think understanding yourself is the first step. like, again, some people are naturally more technical, some people are naturally more kind of sales orientated. So like do a bit of analysis on yourself, understanding what your gaps are in terms of am I lacking?
empathy or am I lacking the skills to communicate things and make things very easy to understand? Or is it the ability to make analogies and crack jokes that's like missing? So understanding...
what's missing and then try to consciously develop that part. There's a lot of resources online about communication skills and all that. you can, as long as you understand what's missing, it's easier to kind of consciously develop that piece as well.
Ben Pearce (34:38.855)
Yeah, and I guess like build a development plan, isn't it? It's you're going, right, I've got an area of I've got some areas of strength and I've got some areas of development and this is my area of development and therefore these are the things that I'm going to do that are going to help me elevate that kind of area of development. I always like there's a little acronym that I like because some people get some limiting beliefs and going, well, I can't do this. You know, I'm just a techie person. I can't build my empathy. I can't communicate more effectively.
put these limiting beliefs in and I love this little acronym BAT which is Belief Attention Technique and basically the idea that you can learn anything if you believe you can if you give it some attention and some time and you ring-fence some time to do it and you develop a technique so you learn from people how to do that thing you can get better at anything so I completely agree with you that kind of assessing yourself working out the areas of development and then believing you can train
train and do and develop it and then doing it.
Liping (35:39.744)
Absolutely. think anyone can learn anything. The technical skills, the self skills, you can learn it all. I think the issue is most people are ticking alone, right? Like they're ticking alone their day, they're ticking alone to the next job, when the next job comes along. Very few people kind of...
take a step back and consciously analyze themselves and say this is the direction I'm going to go, this is the skills that I'm going to develop. I think that's really important. That makes a consciously planned career or consciously planned development plan take you a lot further versus someone that's just taking a long.
Ben Pearce (36:22.791)
Okay. Do you know what, Lee Pink? I've just glanced at the clock and sadly our time, the sands of time have slipped away. Can you believe it? So, key takeaways, quick summary for people that have been listening to the podcast. What would be the key takeaways for everybody?
Liping (36:43.053)
Key takeaways, it's really really important to build a great report with your customer and to do it you need to be technical and to have empathy, understanding what your customer needs and how your technology can solve those. You want to be able to explain things and make it easy to understand and also be likeable and helpful to be there for your customer. And in order to do all of that you want to take a
at yourself, analyzing what you're good at, analyzing what you're missing and then consciously develop what you're missing. Hopefully that's helpful for some of you out there.
Ben Pearce (37:24.315)
Yeah, easy to say isn't it when you say it like that it sounds so so easy to do but each of those things I think you know, it's an area that you can you can go into quite some depth so I love it and I and I loved also the context we put on that of saying well actually that's slightly different if you're in you're allocated or aligned to some big customers where the same you keep seeing the same people whether you're in a transactional environment where you're just seeing people quickly sharp
short and then you're out. And then the difference between the technical folks that you need to work with and the senior leaders that you need to work with. it's a different approach for each of these things. But if you can build those skills together, it's interesting. I was talking to a VP.
few months ago now, and she was saying, you know, I need unicorns, Ben, in my team. I'm like, brilliant, okay, what are unicorns? And she was saying, right, they need great technical skills and what you're describing, these great relationship, these great rapport, these great ability, and I can't find them, so I need to build them. Because she was saying, I can either find people with great tech skills or great soft skills, I can't find the people with both.
But they're the people are really going to thrive in this sort of AI world where lots of the low hanging technical fruit is all sort of been taken by AI. Those unicorns as I'm calling them, I love that phrase now, are those people with the great technical skills and the great soft skills, the great human skills as well. So brilliant. Now, leaving, if people have loved what you've saying, want to see more of you, how can people get in touch with you?
Liping (39:09.709)
So my company is called Data Leaps. I've got a link tree that Ben's gonna share with everyone so you can find my YouTube channel that creates content on Power BI, Fabric, there's some other content on Databricks as well and Table Editor. All of these are available on my YouTube channel as well as I've got my website that contains all the blogs I've written over the years and
if you want to get in touch as well. That's that.
Ben Pearce (39:43.817)
Brilliant. Well, final thing for me to say, Leeping, it's been an honour to have you with us. Thank you so much for spending your time sharing your advice with us. It's been really insightful. So thank you so much.
Liping (39:57.975)
Thank you. It's been a pleasure being here and chatting with you.
