Speaker 2 (00:02.062)
Hi, I'm Ben Pearce and welcome to the Tech World Human Skills podcast. Now, if you want to see how good you are at influencing people in tech, you need to take the ACED:IT Technical Storytelling Self-Assessment. Head over to www.techworldhumanskills.com to find out what you're great at and how you could get better at presenting in the tech world.
Speaker 2 (00:26.606)
Hi, everybody, and welcome to the Tech World Human Skills podcast. We've got another great episode today and it's a bit of a different episode. Why is it a bit of a different episode? Well, often the guests that I bring in are people that are really passionate about a particular topic. They love that particular topic. They've spent years trying to master that topic and then they kind of share their experience and skills of that topic that they love.
today is completely different because we've got a guest in today that hates the topic that we're going to be talking about, that would probably rather scoop her own eyes out with a soup spoon than do the thing that we're talking about, or in fact even be on this podcast. So what we're going to be talking about is we're going to be talking about presenting and public speaking. And our guest today hates
hates doing that. so, well, I'm going to let her introduce herself in a minute, but please welcome to the podcast, my wife, Kate Pearce. Kate, it's lovely to have
Thank you for inviting me to the studio. I often get to come in here. This is your domain. This is my domain.
And you've joined me in my domain, both physically, but also in terms of the topic that we're talking about. Let's get on and do you want to introduce yourself and then we'll start to dig into how much you hate this idea of public speaking and we'll dig into that topic a little bit. But do want to introduce yourself and your background a
Speaker 1 (01:52.738)
Absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:04.942)
Yeah, sure. I'm Kate and Mary to Ben. Professionally, I am a managing editor at a publishing house. We produce academic works. And then personally, I'm a mum to our two kids.
Yeah. Brilliant. Well, we're going to dig into presenting. So I'll start off and tee this up. I've already teed it up a little bit, but I'll ask you this question. Do you like presenting?
Definitely not. You know, it's up there with pineapple on pizza. I could do without it in my life.
But, do you ever do presenting? Yes.
Yes, I mean you've just got to in life haven't you to get anywhere as part of your work, part of being part of the school commitments and things with the kids. You just find yourselves in situations where you have to speak publicly and if you don't just embrace it and go for it then it's going to hold you back in life. So yeah, you have to go for it.
Speaker 2 (03:13.442)
So that's what we're going do. We're going to talk about this from the perspective of it's going to hold you back in life if you don't do it. You'd really rather not do it. Yeah. But you have to do it. So maybe we could dig into for you, why is it that you hate it so much?
You know, I am the biggest introvert out there. happily admit that I am, you know, an introvert. I like quietly editing in my day job. Books don't argue with me. People do. So, you know, that's always been my sort of personality type. So if you're, you know, presenting, talking to people, you are putting yourself
out there on display for all to see. And you open yourself up to comments, criticism, all those sorts of things. And, you know, there's that sort of imposter syndrome that comes in. People are going to think I'm a fraud and I don't know what I'm really talking about. And then I guess, you know, as a teenager, I just really, really couldn't present. I remember it was part of your coursework for
GCSE English language and you know, the stress, the anxiety that, you know, that goes into those sorts of situations. sometimes I go to speak and nothing would come out and you just have flashbacks to that and think, no, is that going to happen again? And sort of recurring anxiety nightmares of, know, you're stood up on a stage and you realise that you haven't prepared anything and everybody's looking at you and, know, just
It's just the whole thing combines into one big negative spiral for me. So that's where I come from.
Speaker 2 (05:08.27)
But interestingly, you do still... All of these things going through your mind. Yeah. So the question would be, why do you put yourself through it? Why do you speak publicly? Why do you present?
I do it. I do. Despite.
Speaker 1 (05:23.371)
I think I'm a very stubborn person.
I would agree. I would concur.
Yeah. yeah. So, you know, I try, I tell, tell my kids to be brave and to do stuff even though they don't want to. So try and be a good parent, right. And do that in action. Set an example. Yeah, exactly. So that they can see, mom really didn't want to do that, but she did. I guess at work I've got things to say and I need to say them. So.
Yes, I can use the reason that I'm an introvert not to do it, but equally I can push myself and do it. And it shows others around me that, okay, yes, we're quiet. Yes, we don't want to do it, but we can, we absolutely can. And we should in order to get our message across because, you know, we've got things to say as well as the people who are regularly talking and saying it. So.
it's really important thing to do and to, know, career progression to be successful. You've just got to do it. You've got to push through. You've got to public speak. Otherwise it's going to hold you back in life.
Speaker 2 (06:33.048)
Yeah. I think it's interesting, isn't it? And that you just touched upon there, that there are are loud people and I probably put myself in that category. And it would be really sad if the only people that were ever heard were the loud people. Often introverts have done a lot of reading, a lot of research, a lot of thinking, have got some really valuable perspectives.
I would too,
Speaker 1 (06:48.318)
Exactly that.
Speaker 2 (06:58.582)
And if those perspectives are never aired and the only perspectives that are aired are louder people, you know, that's what half the population should we say if we roughly group the world into loud people and quiet people, I guess it's spectrum. But, you know, half the people. wouldn't that be really sad? think. Right. So I think what we've ascertained is you really don't want to do this. But
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:25.846)
you understand the value that you need to and so therefore you take some action to actually do it. And so I wondered if that's what we could do for a few minutes is sort of wander through that how you do it, the sort of techniques that have helped you, the sort of things that you're feeling as you're going through it so that anybody else out there that's listening, and to be honest, most of the people that I speak to don't like presenting and public speaking.
very rare that I speak to people that go, I love it. I absolutely love it. I think the vast majority of people would say, I don't like doing that. And then even the people that do like it often are in situations that make them nervous because of the pressure, because they've got to present to their boss or an important customer or whatever. So I think probably a lot of people are very similar to you, more maybe than you think. But from your perspective,
That makes me feel better.
Speaker 2 (08:26.198)
Let's start to think about the run up. So how do you feel in the run up and what is it that you're doing in the run up before you present?
Yeah, so in the run up, as you can imagine, it's not a calm situation. It's constantly on my mind a lot. think about it a lot. I have to try and compartmentalize it so that it doesn't take over all my waking thoughts, possibly some of my sleeping ones as well. So I think that is a skill in itself to try and of block it off and get on with normal.
life when you can. And the other thing that's really important I think is prepping. I am not one of those people that can do things off the cuff. I can't improvise that. If somebody asked me to improvise in a drama lesson, worst nightmare ever. Hate that. I can't. I can't. I need a script for a play. I need something to focus on and fall back on and some structure like that. So
I know I'm going to feel really nervous before I'm going to present. Possibly can't sleep the night before. I might wake you up at 4am saying, Ben, I'm not going to be able to do this. So might need a pep talk then. So, and then, you know, on the day nerves do kick in. So it's, know, how do you cope with those and don't let them take over so that it becomes.
debilitating and you physically can't do it. yeah, those are the sorts of things.
Speaker 2 (10:12.664)
So a couple of things that sprung out to me there that are really interesting. So the first one was about the preparation. So for you, you like to really prepare for this. I do. So maybe talk to me through a little bit around how do you prepare? And also, there's got to be time management because you're a busy person. How much time do you have to allocate? And how do you go about preparing? And how do you go about managing your time to do that?
I do.
Speaker 1 (10:38.71)
so yeah, I think you and I sort of chalk and cheese on these things. You have, you know, you're well thought through, but you have minimal notes so you can do more things from your mind. can't, I, I need, you know, script really, that I can read through. I guess the danger of that is you're going to sound like a robot that you've got no expression to it. So that is a skill that you have to work on.
how to present it, how to read it so that it's interesting for people to hear. And then prepping and time management, you know, that's a life skill that you learn. You learn it very quickly with family life, know, you're juggling about 15 different things at the same time. So I guess it is carving out the time to do the preparation.
And just making sure that you stick to it and that it's realistic as well. Don't commit, over commit yourself to, I'm going to do two hours on that night when you know you've got a ton of other stuff to do. Being realistic, regular small chunks of prep time that can work around everything else that happens in life, which is the...
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, let's dig into. So you've got that prep time and firstly, you've got to think if I am going to present, because of the way you're built and wired, there's going to be a lot of prep time. So you can't overcommit because if you overcommit, then that's going to just like triple the stress. You've got too much to do, not enough time to do it and something that you hate doing. So that is like a mental health nightmare.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:28.952)
Really? yeah!
So learning that about yourself is really important. And then I wonder if it's then we're starting to think about some of the techniques and some of the different ways you've got it. So if the outcome is you have said out loud to people that have consumed it, the message that is important, right? that's the outcome is that they've heard your perspective and you've been heard,
Yeah
Speaker 2 (12:59.082)
One of the things that I know that you do is rather than do it live if you can, you do a lot with video on demand, don't you? So when you've had to give a presentation and you know you've got to give one, if you can possibly record it in advance and do it on video, you've been quite successful doing that as opposed to doing it live in
you have to. Yeah, that is definitely my preference. Yeah. You can write your own script, learn to use a teleprompter and think about the pace of it, which we said is important. And then you haven't got the physical audience there in front of you, shuffling, coughing, coughing and mentally judging you. And then you can do it to your own schedule as well. You haven't got the stress of
got to be at that certain time and place. I can do it in between jobs when I'm mentally ready to do it. And for me personally, that just makes such a difference. It just takes a layer of stress off it. So yeah, I've found video on demand. It's the easiest way to do it. I still will do live, but you know, if I had a preference, that's definitely what I would do.
So let's break those into two bits, right? So the outcome is that you have given your message and that people have heard your perspective, right? that's, and like, when we're coming to it, whenever you're thinking about presentation.
Ultimately, the outcome is that people do something right. The presentation is a means to an end. So if you're presenting about this thing, you know, that then leads to people being inspired, motivated, learning something new, changing the way they do things or whatever it might be. So if we break it into two, there's this idea that you can do stuff video on demand and that is actually really nice for people to consume it when they want. Or there is the live, the live. So if we break it into two.
Speaker 2 (15:01.612)
And let's dig into that video on demand bit, because you were talking there about a script, you were talking there about teleprompters and that kind of stuff. So talk me through, if you're now going to create a video on demand piece, what are the tools that work for you to help you create something that you're proud of at the end?
Speaker 2 (15:24.686)
So you start with script. Okay. Talk to me about that script. How do you build that script and what's that script got to be to be sort of delivered well on video?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:38.377)
It's got to have a good beginning, middle and end, suppose. Say what you're to say, say it, say what you've said. Structure it really nicely. Structure it well. Think about your timings. How long do you want it to be? Make sure that you are bang on. Don't make it too short. Don't make it too long. It's got to be just
Okay, so you're
Speaker 2 (15:57.11)
Right. And that's interesting because I think the average human speaks at about 150 words per minute. Yeah. So if you if you're writing a script, then you can do a word count and you know how long it's going to be. Trim it and make it the right length.
Exactly. Yes, you can do a rough calculation and make sure that you are spot on because nobody wants it too short. Nobody wants it too long. So, yeah, that's important to do. Yeah. And then it's practice. Practice your tone. You've got to make it interesting. You don't want to be monotone. You don't want to send everybody to sleep. Yeah. Yeah. So it's important to keep it interesting.
And what about the writing? Because I think from my experience of using teleprompters and script, when people start writing, they often write like they're doing an email, you know, and it sounds like this weird posh version of themselves, as opposed to them how they would speak. how do you... So is that something you practice when you're script writing?
Yeah, definitely. So write it as you would speak it. So put in, if you, you know, any of your phrases or words that you would normally use, but aren't particularly formal, just put them in. Yeah. And yeah, so that it doesn't sound like you're writing a legal, reading a legal document. You are speaking as you would speak. Yeah. That's going to engage the audience more than just reading something dry and formal. So yeah, just try and keep it as natural as possible. Yeah. And as close to how you would talk.
If you were just having a conversation with somebody, just try and keep it like that.
Speaker 2 (17:30.744)
And because I think if you've then got a really well written script that is written like you would talk, then it's and you talked about it, the variation in pace, the variation in pitch, how you make it less monotone. Yeah. So that's something you really think about doing, is it?
Yeah, absolutely. You know, you've sat in too many lecture theatres and university over the years and you start nodding off because it's too monotone. You've got to keep people engaged. And that's easier to do if you're doing it live because naturally you're just talking, right? It's harder to do a video on demand. So it's definitely something to practice in advance. Record yourself, listen back. Am I sounding boring? Is there anything I can do to sort of...
change the tone and make it more engaging.
And so we've got some equipment, didn't we? Or I've got some equipment with me. And so we've got a proper teleprompter. Not something that I spent loads of money on just with a normal tablet and then a little thing that sits on top of the tripod. We've got a proper teleprompter. Talk me through your experience of what that's like using a teleprompter.
slightly terrifying. but yeah, it's okay. Once you get on with it, it's all right. It's just getting used to, you know, we've usually got a studio set up. So you've got sort of things recording you and lights on you. and then moving words as well and just, my goodness, how am going to cope? But, know, once you focus on the teleprompter, and it's going at a regular pace, and you've thought about.
Speaker 1 (19:09.698)
the structure of it and how it's going to flow. So it's just focusing on that. yeah, getting through it and you know, all these things pass, don't they? There is an end. Yeah, just get through it.
But one of the interesting things, because I do a bit of work with teleprompter work with people on the course I'm teaching, is pace. Because a lot of people, when they get in a high stress situation, like public speaking, that kind of stuff, their pace gets quicker and quicker and they really faster and really fast and really fast. But when you're using the teleprompter, we kind of set the pace, don't we? So it sets it and sort of slows you down.
It forces you to slow down, that's right. Yeah, so you can't talk too quickly. If you do, you've got an awkward pause while you're waiting for the teleprompter to catch up. So you soon learn that you have to follow the teleprompter. So yeah, that's a really useful tool.
And it's interesting because some of the feedback that I know you've received is, OK, you sound really calm and really authoritative when you're you're speaking.
reassuring I think was the word.
Speaker 2 (20:16.558)
And a lot of was just down to the vocal delivery.
Absolutely, that's not how I'm feeling inside. I'm like a duck, paddling frantically underneath, yeah, trying to be calm on the exterior.
Brilliant. Right. Now, I think let's let's think a little bit about live. And as this is live, I think your mic's disappearing a bit. Do just want to lift it up just a little? Can you lift the arm up a little bit? That might help.
keep that in the edit as we're talking about in life. There we go. So, so firstly, the first thing you've done is actually, I can often dodge live presenting because given today's world, I can record things digitally and get the message out there. And that works really nicely. What about when you do have to do it live? What's it like? Have you got for introverts and people that hate it when you do have to do it live?
Yeah, yeah, so...
Speaker 1 (21:10.67)
That's the big eight,
Speaker 1 (21:15.478)
Yeah. So, you know, this, this strikes fear into my heart doing it live. So, you, it's the panic, the sheer panic of it. You've just got to try and keep it under control because you are going to stress. If you're an introvert like me, say, don't stress. I'm sorry, but I'm going to really, I'm going to. Yeah. So you've just got to lean into that and embrace it and try and control it as much as you can. Yeah. Breathing, know, breathing is always good.
But breathing techniques, slow down your breathing. I know it's simple, but it does work. It reminds you that you're okay. You're still going. It'll be all right.
And I remember sitting down with you, actually, and we sat down with the kids and we watched, there was that show with one of your favourite Hollywood actors, Chris Hemsworth. Oh, love Chris. And we were watching that one where he was trying to defeat age. I think it's called Limitless on Disney+. that was it. He was trying to defeat ageing and that kind of stuff. And one of the things was about fear, wasn't there? Yeah. And he walked out on that.
crane on top of the tallest building in Sydney, Hates Heights, and he had to walk out on that little crane. And I remember him getting as he walked out and had all these monitors connected to him. You could see his heart rate going, you could see him going crazy. And then he got to the end and the little earpiece, he's got his coach on there and the coach is there saying, okay, just breathe. And he did some of those breathing techniques that you're talking about. And you could just see his heart rate fall and you could see him.
start to almost embrace it and almost enjoy what he was doing out there. And that was through breathing. So it can be really, really powerful. What is there anything particularly that you do with your breathing techniques or any particular things that that work for you?
Speaker 1 (23:06.398)
Just really simple, just slow it down and then breathe in for four and then out for four. And just keep repeating that until your brain kicks in and says, know, we're still alive. It's okay. Lower your heart rate. You're going to be all right.
And so breathing, that is not to be underestimated, I think. I think that's a really good thing to do. What else you got? What else helps you?
good old positive mindset, think. Just trust the process. Remember that I am worthy of being heard. I do have things to say. I have got some life experience and people are interested in my thoughts. I remember my English A-level teacher saying,
know, Kate doesn't speak much in class, but when she does, it's worth listening to. So, and I think that is true of lot of introverts. I know we don't talk a lot, but our brains are working. We are thinking. We do have things we want to say. just remembering that, you know, this is my opportunity. People are going to listen. So it's worth doing and to stay positive that it will work out well.
Yeah. So bit of positive mental attitude. We've already talked quite a bit about the prep and that's a big part of it, you know, that I guess helps you de-stress a little bit is that you've invested time and you've done your preparation.
Speaker 1 (24:37.902)
And that's an element of control as well. I don't like feeling out of control. you know, being talking live is a situation that there are a lot of factors beyond my control. Yeah. So with prep beforehand, I can control. I've got some input and you know, that helps me think I've, yeah, it's not all beyond my control. I have had some input on this and that does make me feel better.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (25:06.114)
What about the dreaded Q &A, the dreaded questions that you might get from the audience? Because when you're saying that you like to be structured...
Yeah, yeah, exactly. you can't. Yeah.
How do you cope with that kind of Q &A or the uncontrolled?
Yeah. So it's controlled to a point. And then I do appreciate that there is an audience who are listening and may want to participate, even if I don't want them to. So they then ask me questions, which then gets me out of control. I guess how I think about that is I think about my topic and I think about the potential questions that they might ask. Any curveballs that I think they might ask. And I think about
what my answers could be. So at least I know I've got something. I don't have to try and think off the top of my head because again, that's going to make me panic. I know I've got some go-to answers that I can use and expand upon, but at least if I've got a few points lined up in my head, I'm not then stumbling over my words and know, panic setting in and I'm then into a horrible spiral. So yeah, again, it's sort of prepping a few.
Speaker 1 (26:20.334)
Question and answers.
Yeah, I remember working with a chap and quite senior leader and he would always do...
with his team, he'd do what he called the rude Q &A. So basically they'd write down what are all the horrible questions that people might ask us, know, all the curve balls, because I'm now going to get up on stage. And let's say it might be about a difficult message. It might be about a product that's actually not very good, or it might be about, I've got to tell people about the business is contracting and we're not doing very well and there might be jobs at risk or do you know what mean? It might be some really difficult things that you have to present about. And actually by going through and writing the rude Q &A, what will be the
the rude questions that will be asked about this. Kind of A, firstly, help them chill out a little bit about it. And then secondly, if they do come up, he's got some way that some places that he could think about. So I think that's good thinking about those sorts of questions that might get going. Now, what about the start? So tell me when you're you're when you're doing a live presentation.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:29.816)
how do you get through the start? Because it feels like the start's a...
Yeah, it's hard to get going, isn't it, Wurf? You're like, once you get going, that is half the battle. But it's definitely fake it till you make it. Get your game face on. You don't feel like putting your game face on. That is the last thing you want to do. You want to just curl up in a ball in your duvet. That's where you want to be. But no, you've got to do this. You've got to put your shoulders back. You've got to smile and pretend that you want to be there. That is the place you want to be.
And you just keep going with that. And at some point it will switch. Sometimes it might be at the very end. You might have to go through the whole thing faking it, but at some point you will make it. So yeah, that is important thing to do. Get your game face on and just maintain it. And if people will react to that, they'll think, okay, yeah, no, she looks calm, composed. She looks like she's got it sorted. I haven't. But that's the perception you give. And that's really important. And then, yeah, at some point,
You will, you'll relax, you'll think, okay, I am doing this. You know, I haven't spontaneously combusted. Nobody's heckled me off the stage. Something is going right. And I might be able to see this through to the end, till the Q and A. And then that's a whole different session.
So it's that and it's that I think if you can control with your breathing, because sometimes I've heard it called, and I love the term, the creeping death, when it's about you, when you're waiting to start the presentation, you're waiting to do the thing. And that is when you've got the trouble, the chance then I think of your breathing's going, you're starting to spiral. through that kind of breathing, through that kind of positive mental attitude that you've got there.
Speaker 2 (29:13.582)
and this idea that I'm going to fake it and then just through the breathing and then smiling.
Smiling is important. Eye contact, as much eye contact as you can manage. Even just a few fleeting... You've something! Maintained eye contact!
You're fleeting glad.
Speaker 2 (29:29.998)
And the smile helps, I think, just put people at ease a little bit. Because if you look like a petrified cat, that transfers.
That's how people are going to react to you. exactly. So you, and you engage them with a smile. They feel reassured. They feel part of your talk and it helps you as well. If you smile, if you go in crying, you're going to feel awful. If you go in with a smile, it helps. does make you happier. Absolutely.
Yeah. Put it all together and then you can get through it. And it's nice because although you really hate it, I've seen some of the presentations you've given and the feedback that you've got from people and things like that. And you get really good feedback, don't you? don't think you don't mind.
Yeah, yeah, I'm not one to blow my trumpet as you probably have gathered by now. But yeah, I have had good feedback when I have presented. yeah, you've definitely helped me. I know I've been a project over the years with your coaching.
But the interesting thing about the feedback is, the feedback you get is that you were quite calm and reassured, I think was the word you used a second ago, but inside that is not how you And if I asked you to tell me, how did that go? You'd be like, it's disaster.
Speaker 1 (30:47.118)
Me? No! But never mind.
Whereas the feedback from everybody else is actually it's really good. And so there's the way you see yourself and the way others see you. And they're often very different when you have to do this sort of thing.
Absolutely. And I think the other thing that I find when I am presenting live is to slow your pace down. I know we've touched on it before, but I do talk and inside you're feeling like, you know, people must feel like I'm talking like I've got some sort of medical issue, but you don't want to talk too fast. That is, yeah, not what you, that's not what they want to hear. It's too much to take in. Just slow, calm.
considered, just talk a bit slower than you think you should be because you'll naturally want to whiz through it. Just keep it slow at slower pace than your brain is telling you to do.
Yeah, and that really helps. Well, do know what? This has been a brilliant conversation. I think I've put you through enough torture because we are improvising on a recorded medium that is going to be shared to other people. this is like torture for you.
Speaker 1 (31:46.99)
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (31:54.771)
This is my favourite, I hope there's wine later!
So, all right, let's start to wrap this up a little bit. So from your perspective, what would the key takeaways be that you'd like? If anybody else is sort of thinking, I hate public speaking, I'm an introvert, I could think of nothing worse to do. What would the key takeaways be, do think, for folks listening?
I mean, speaking on behalf of us introverts, you can do it. You really can. I know it's hard. I know you don't want to, but you know, the bottom line is you can do it. You are going to stress. People are going to tell you not to, but you will. And just do your best to control it. Manage the situation as much as you possibly can through breathing, through prep, through, you know, the type of
presentation you're doing on demand video or live. And remember your motivations. Remember you have got something important to say. Your message is important and you want to show other people that you can do it and that they can do it. So, you know, trying to strengthen others around you as well. And then my favourite thing in life is it will end.
This is a phase and it will pass at some point. know, this isn't your life forever. Now the presentation will come to a conclusion and you'll feel good about yourself, right? So you'll be proud that you've done it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:27.66)
Yeah. Well, for me, I think the most important thing is some of the most important things to be said are said by people that don't say much. And it's really important, therefore, that if they can't, you know, just that bravery, that courage because it feels so horrid.
But then really important things are said and heard because of that courage. So it's great for people to do that. And we want to hear those things. We don't just want to hear half of society. We want to hear all of society, don't we? We do. And so I just think that that's really important. So thank you so much for sharing your perspective on this. Like I said, I do know and really appreciate that you...
could think of a million things that you'd rather do than come and share your experience of this. So I just want to say thank you very much. And on behalf of all the listeners, thank you for sharing your experience with us.
thank you very much for having me. I shall now go and get a strong drink.
Speaker 2 (34:30.124)
go yet remember to subscribe to the podcast and rate the show it really helps us grow and book new great guests and remember if the podcast isn't enough for you and you are weekly micro learning delivered straight here in box sign up to the tech world human skills weekly head over to www.techworldhumanskills.com to sign
